Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
I'm just sayin' because I haven't heard it said yet:
Whoever deleted his Twitter account could just have easily have sanitized his Facebook account. Pointing to his "real" Facebook page and discrediting ONE of the two photos in question doesn't mean the other picture didn't come from his FB page.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
As for that picture, it seems that only one out of the several new photos of Trayvon proved to be someone else. It was also the one taken from furthest away, and where the face was the hardest to make out the details of, so it makes sense that it was the one an error was made on.

It is certainly unfortunate that that mistake was made, but I guess that's the sort of thing that happens when the population at large are left to do the actual investigative journalism because the media decided not to.

The amount that that one false picture has spread, is MINISCULE in comparison to how much spread and effect on public opinion the extremely outdated pictures of Trayvon as a beaming cherub child have.

Let's be honest, that picture wasn't really all that important to the point being made (if there is one other than to just get more accuracy and more recent pics) compared to the others.

The other pictures are not at odds with that mistaken one, in fact, I think the 2 close ups showing the gold grilled teeth are far more relevant to making the case that Zimmerman's suspicions of him may have been warranted.

Let me explain.

Do I mean that I think Zimmerman could see his gold teeth from a great distance? No. Obviously, that is highly unlikely. Do I think the same of his tattos? No, I'm sure Z didn't see any of that.

But I do think, and you can say I'm unreasonable if you must, but I think that to have an elaborate gold grill at age 17 especially, indicates a very high level of "buying in" to the gangsta thug culture. I have seen a lot of teens who have bought into that culture, and the number who went so far as to get gold teeth grills... is infinitesimal. I think that's almost of the level of a face tattoo or forked tongue body modification when it comes to showing dedication to that lifestyle.

Again, and it's sad that I have to stress this point so much, but of course being a gangsta thug and having gold grills and neck tattoos and being a thief and delinquent do not mean you should be shot. Assaulting someone for asking your business in a community you don't live in? Maybe that does. I still don't really think so, but it certainly does put it within the realm of legal justification.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Have you considered that he might be joking and ironic? Of course not. Because this conveniently fits into your stereotypes of young black men.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Have you considered that he might be joking and ironic? Of course not. Because this conveniently fits into your stereotypes of young black men.

Gangster style tweets being ironic? Maybe, although unproven. Gold teeth? Give me a break. That's not ironic that's actually embracing it.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Again, and it's sad that I have to stress this point so much, but of course being a gangsta thug and having gold grills and neck tattoos and being a thief and delinquent do not mean you should be shot. Assaulting someone for asking your business in a community you don't live in? Maybe that does. I still don't really think so, but it certainly does put it within the realm of legal justification.

It seems pretty clear that Zimmerman was overzealous and provoked a confrontation (not necessarily physical). I think a lot of people would have been annoyed as hell if Zimmerman was following them and harassing them. I know I would have been. The question is then, who initiated physical contact? Zimmerman with his previous arrests? Possible but it seems odd after just being on the phone with the cops. A teenager who buys and who is getting in trouble at school? Possible. I imagine we would have heard if there was evidence Trayvon was punched right?
 
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Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
It seems pretty clear that Zimmerman was overzealous and provoked a confrontation, but that is not illegal. I think a lot of people would have been annoyed as hell if Zimmerman was following them and harassing them. I know I would have been. The question is then, who initiated physical contact? Zimmerman with his previous arrests? Possible but it seems odd after just being on the phone with the cops. A teenager who buys and who is getting in trouble at school? Possible. I imagine we would have heard if there was evidence Trayvon was punched right?

Personally I think his own brother saying that he punched a bus driver is a very strong indication that he was probably the initiator of the physical fight. That plus George Zimmerman's testimony. I also think the fact that George was screaming for help, although not conclusive at all, tends to point in the direction of it having not been a fight he started.

I think usually if you start a fight, you typically have a different mindset that probably isn't going to involve screaming for help.
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,302
1
0
Trayvon's mother:

"They killed my son, and now they're trying to kill his reputation."

One person killed your son, ma'am. Who is "they"?
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Trayvon's mother:

"They killed my son, and now they're trying to kill his reputation."

One person killed your son, ma'am. Who is "they"?

I had the same reaction. I forgive her for just about anything now due to the anguish she's going through, but yea... one person, and in self-defense. Of course she doesn't know what happened, and she doesn't want to accept that her son had become the sort of person who could do that.

The other thing is, does digging up true facts about him (if they prove to be) really qualify as killing his reputation? That sounds like a problem with the facts of his life more than anything else.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
I would think the value of more accurate/recent information would be evident. We want the most accurate picture of this event possible, right?

Maybe the point isn't to drum up fear in "white America" maybe it's to get the truth out for it's own sake, and maybe just maybe help people understand that Zimmerman's initial suspicions were not completely unfathomable.

If people start to realize that his initial reaction to seeing this stranger walking around was more logical than they initially believed, and helps reduce his demonization, that can only be a good thing if we're actually hoping to get at the truth here, rather than just have a lynching.

I don't think anyone is claiming that dressing like a gangsta, getting gold grills in your teeth, being a petty thief and delinquent at school, vandalism, certain types of attire or ways of carrying yourself to look "hard" to your fellow teens who are all doing it too, that any of this justifies being shot.

No, obviously in this free country Trayvon had every right to dress that way, act that way, etc. I think his criminal choices are unfortunate, but I've had friends who did that sort of thing and they were still good people for the most part.

No, the choice he made which changes everything was the choice to brutally assault Zimmerman. If Zimmerman's account is accurate (and it certainly seems to fit the evidence and eyewitness testimony) then the crucial moment where Trayvon took the embracing of thug culture too far was when he decked Zimmerman and then straddled him and started slamming his head on the pavement.

In my ideal world even then he would not be shot, I don't like it when people die, period. I would've much, much preferred the cops show up, wrestle him off Z, and drag him off to jail that night. Following that, he has a real wake up call where his parents give him the "come to Jesus" speech and he ends up forsaking the criminal path he was on, and becoming a fantastic member of society from that point forward. That would've been great.

But I can't really fault Zimmerman for fearing for his life, maybe all he was going to get was a bad beating but, the law is pretty clear on his right to use that gun at that point. I'm not really much of a fan of guns, never owned one myself. I think it's extremely unlikely that Trayvon was going to keep at this until Zimmerman was dead, and so I largely wish the gun hadn't been there.

But I definitely don't think Zimmerman is a monster. This is a tragedy, but as with most tragedies there is no real villain.

What abort T in fear for HIS life?, point not mentioned much here at all. Since none of know how close Z got to him when trailing down that walkway being afraid of this type of activity would be normal IMO. Hell look at Z's previous charges, domestic, resistance with violence, did HE have an anger issue??maybe it was a bad idea to grant him a CCW after all..
 

cave_dweller

Senior member
Mar 3, 2012
231
0
0
He is dead. Nothing can bring him back. I think Mr. Zimmerman did not do it because he hate black/yellow/green/purple people but a case of being over zealous. Like a trigger happy security guard. He did in a previous situation nabbed a suspect and thought he would do the same. The basic scenario basically boiled from 2 sides.

1) Trayvon walking through a unknown neighborhood and dressed like a teenager basically. He did not know of the recent events or problems they had with certain crimes in that area.

2) Zimmerman on the other hand was on the look out for suspicious persons which he does not know. Forgive him if he did not stay with the trend on how they dress and maybe on that part it stands out as suspicious or as "gangsta".

Both did not know each other nor any hate towards each other. What happened next is Trayvon thinking a craze man is trying to mug/kill or hurt him. Zimmerman was unaware that Trayvon felt just as threathen as he is and adrenaline got hold of them probably. Trayvon fighting of a threat which he feared and Zimmerman doing the same. If he was attacked from behind Trayvon probably waited for him to turn. So both thinking the other one is trying to mug/hurt them got in a brawl and a rush of blood ended it.

I believe everything could have been avoided if Zimmerman just open up a dialogue and let his intentions known and introduce himself who he is etc etc. I mean he is in control and he is armed. It could have been avoided so easily by simple social skills and through the word of mouth.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
He is dead. Nothing can bring him back. I think Mr. Zimmerman did not do it because he hate black/yellow/green/purple people but a case of being over zealous. Like a trigger happy security guard. He did in a previous situation nabbed a suspect and thought he would do the same. The basic scenario basically boiled from 2 sides.

1) Trayvon walking through a unknown neighborhood and dressed like a teenager basically. He did not know of the recent events or problems they had with certain crimes in that area.

2) Zimmerman on the other hand was on the look out for suspicious persons which he does not know. Forgive him if he did not stay with the trend on how they dress and maybe on that part it stands out as suspicious or as "gangsta".

Both did not know each other nor any hate towards each other. What happened next is Trayvon thinking a craze man is trying to mug/kill or hurt him. Zimmerman was unaware that Trayvon felt just as threathen as he is and adrenaline got hold of them probably. Trayvon fighting of a threat which he feared and Zimmerman doing the same. If he was attacked from behind Trayvon probably waited for him to turn. So both thinking the other one is trying to mug/hurt them got in a brawl and a rush of blood ended it.

I believe everything could have been avoided if Zimmerman just open up a dialogue and let his intentions known and introduce himself who he is etc etc. I mean he is in control and he is armed. It could have been avoided so easily by simple social skills and through the word of mouth.

Yes word of mouth!.............that Zimmerman had a gun!!!!!

Zimmerman is a cowardly character(looking unkempt too)- a coward with a gun is deadly against the non-threatening types.... He makes a great case for harder gun controls, if you want security don't be so cheap about it, hire some real deal.... not some kibbutz wanna be!

I believe, he should do "man in the first" for this, it ain't murder....but a case of need to only license real men/woman to hold legal guns.

Zimmerman shouldn't of ever had a licensed firearm, he wasn't psychologically fit for one!
Tragic stuff......

You want gated community....pay the price to for the security, don't get the chairs' nephew as a cheap substitute!

This is a warning to the upper middle class, the cost of the paranoia that right-wing thought creates, isn't worth the cost associated, your ultra rich masters love you to take their heat!
 
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cave_dweller

Senior member
Mar 3, 2012
231
0
0
Yes word of mouth!.............that Zimmerman had a gun!!!!!

Zimmerman is a cowardly character(looking unkempt too)- a coward with a gun is deadly against the non-threatening types.... He makes a great case for harder gun controls, if you want security don't be so cheap about it, hire some real deal.... not some kibbutz wanna be!

I believe, he should do "man in the first" for this, it ain't murder....but a case of need to only license real men/woman to hold legal guns.

Zimmerman shouldn't of ever had a licensed firearm, he wasn't psychologically fit for one!
Tragic stuff......

You want gated community....pay the price to for the security, don't get the chairs' nephew as a cheap substitute!

This is a warning to the upper middle class, the cost of the paranoia that right-wing thought creates, isn't worth the cost associated, your ultra rich masters love you to take their heat!

He was doing community patrolling. Would you do it without a gun? I would not. But both of them saw each other as the bad guy basically.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
He was doing community patrolling. Would you do it without a gun? I would not. But both of them saw each other as the bad guy basically.
I wouldn't patrol with a gun no way! that would make me a target! A gun in the hands of a non-professional is a liability(as Zimmerman is learning now). You have the right to bear arms(i have got whoppin big muay thai, thumping arms, I don't need a gun!!!) and to live up to the responsibilities too!!!!!!

You don't get it, simply shouldn't of been armed with anything greater then a cell phone!!!!!!!
Time for the brig' Zimmerman and for people to start focusing on what matters in the civil sense.....
Hard but true.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
I wouldn't patrol with a gun no way! that would make me a target! A gun in the hands of a non-professional is a liability(as Zimmerman is learning now). You have the right to bear arms(i have got whoppin big muay thai, thumping arms, I don't need a gun!!!) and to live up to the responsibilities too!!!!!!

You don't get it, simply shouldn't of been armed with anything greater then a cell phone!!!!!!!
Time for the brig' Zimmerman and for people to start focusing on what matters in the civil sense.....
Hard but true.

It seems that you don't understand liability. A gun in the hands of a professional can make the directors of that profession liable. It's precisely why the 911 dispatch said they "didn't need" him to do that. It's precisely why the other organization's Neighborhood Watch guidelines recommended against it. If you carry anyway, it's your personal liability because they disavowed themselves of any liability when they said you shouldn't. It doesn't MEAN you shouldn't, it just means that they don't want the liability if you do.
 

cave_dweller

Senior member
Mar 3, 2012
231
0
0
I wouldn't patrol with a gun no way! that would make me a target! A gun in the hands of a non-professional is a liability(as Zimmerman is learning now). You have the right to bear arms(i have got whoppin big muay thai, thumping arms, I don't need a gun!!!) and to live up to the responsibilities too!!!!!!

You don't get it, simply shouldn't of been armed with anything greater then a cell phone!!!!!!!
Time for the brig' Zimmerman and for people to start focusing on what matters in the civil sense.....
Hard but true.

Define a "professional".
I wish criminals see it your way where only professionals will carry stolen and unregistered firearms.
And no I do not get it after seeing half a car full of police reservist was cut down by a assailant armed with a assault rifle. If some of them did not have a firearm they all would have been dead as to where one passed away and 2 was wounded. Do you think someone who breaks into homes with the knowledge that the people might be home will enter the premises unarmed? By the time the police gets there the burglar had his way with your wife smoked a ciggarette and flipped her over for seconds.
 
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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,079
136
I had the same reaction. I forgive her for just about anything now due to the anguish she's going through, but yea... one person, and in self-defense. Of course she doesn't know what happened, and she doesn't want to accept that her son had become the sort of person who could do that.

The other thing is, does digging up true facts about him (if they prove to be) really qualify as killing his reputation? That sounds like a problem with the facts of his life more than anything else.
She's pulling the race card cuz she's angry and she thinks it will help get her revenge.
Also, mothers can NEVER be honest about their sons. Guys on death row for multiple murders and rapes always have a mother crying "NO HE'S A GOOD BOY, MY BABY BOY IS GOOD!"
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
Yes word of mouth!.............that Zimmerman had a gun!!!!!

Zimmerman is a cowardly character(looking unkempt too)- a coward with a gun is deadly against the non-threatening types.... He makes a great case for harder gun controls, if you want security don't be so cheap about it, hire some real deal.... not some kibbutz wanna be!

I believe, he should do "man in the first" for this, it ain't murder....but a case of need to only license real men/woman to hold legal guns.

Zimmerman shouldn't of ever had a licensed firearm, he wasn't psychologically fit for one!
Tragic stuff......

You want gated community....pay the price to for the security, don't get the chairs' nephew as a cheap substitute!

This is a warning to the upper middle class, the cost of the paranoia that right-wing thought creates, isn't worth the cost associated, your ultra rich masters love you to take their heat!

You are incredible, and come across as racist.

Zimmerman was not on patrol when this happened so most of the gun crap is baseless. This is America. We allow guns. This shouldn't be about gun nuts vs gun grabbers.


An unkept look? What? Do we need to go back into trayvon clearly looking just like a thug and what that means for his character? Zimmerman doesn't look unkept at all, he just appears to be a regular looking mexican guy.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Here is the latest on the case.

1. The lead investigator had enough doubt about Zimmerman's version of the events that he recommended that Zimmerman be charged with homicide/negligent manslaughter.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...t-to-charge-zimmerman-20120327,0,748228.story

2. The Local State's attorney refused to issue the warrant, based upon the fact that they felt they did not have enough evidence, despite the lead investigators information. Also in a break with standard procedure, no one from the local state's attorney office, visited the scene before declining to pursue the case.

3. Zimmerman did not have any pictures taken of his injuries at the scene of the accident, again not following procedure.

4. The paramedics who treated him at the scene obviously felt he was not injuried enough to allow him to leave the scene, clearly the injuries were never life threatening.

5. Zimmerman spent time in the Sanford police station, without an attorney or any recording of the interview (as we have yet to hear of any video or audio tapes). Again out of the norm for such a incident.

6. The special prosecutor in an interview published in the LA Times and I quote, "It's possible that we’ll just make a decision without the grand jury".

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/...-pleads-for-patience-20120327,0,1949206.story

What that means depends upon who you ask, but I can not remember in the past 25 years here in Central Florida that a high profile case like this not going to the grand jury, unless the prosecutor will be pressing charges, simply because its easier to pass the buck.

Will we see a decision soon? Probably not, but its looking more likely Zimmerman will get charged with some crime that allows the state to say they did their job, and pass it on to the court.

Or they won't charge him due to the immunity provided by the law.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
 

Sephire

Golden Member
Feb 9, 2011
1,689
3
76
article-2120504-125AFDAD000005DC-895_634x474.jpg
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
899
126
So Trayvon was pretty much being stalked by Zimmerman. I find it hard to believe that he would punch a guy that weighed 80 pounds more than him. So Zimmerman starts some shit with the kid and pushes him, or whatever, and Trayvon strikes back and proceeds to beat the crap out of Zimmerman. Zimmerman apparently was worthless at fighting and pulls his gun and kills Trayvon. I'm done here. It's all just speculation on everyone's part. Even mine.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
My question is, why initially were only pictures of a very baby faced young kid only shown? Yet only a "menacing" mug shot of the accused?

The family of Martin was behind a lot of it as they were willing to talk. Zimmerman was advised by his lawyers to remain out of the media as well as death threats also rolling in by the next day.

Zimmerman is taking the high road in this and really hasn't brought up much derogatory statements against Martin and has kept it very matter-of-factly.

The Martin's are on a smear campaign and do not want any of their son's past released. They are working on sueing the school and demanding the person responsible be fired that leaked their son's involvement with vandalism, handling stolen property, trespassing, and drug use/sales. They say it has nothing to do with who their son is. They feel (who can blame them) that Martin's current pictures don't show who their son really was and the Martin at 12 years old is the best example. Likewise they think 'anyone can put on a suit' and Zimmerman's current pictures don't represent that same man back from 2005 with violence in his blood.

They feel Zimmerman being violent in the past makes his guilt 100% beyond a reason of a doubt.

Now that Zimmerman actually has a $10k bounty on his head, it's making it even harder for him to talk to the press and I believe that was the true intention of that.

Many now believe all the facebook and twitter stuff has been fabricated and Martin's current pictures are fake.

The one with the guy shooting the middle fingers up was an admitted hoax by a reporter that admitted he was stirring the pot. They are extending that to say all the other pics are fakes which is not true. Yet everyday someone posts up a definite fake for both sides which isn't helping when the weak-minded buy into them immediately.