Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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It would indicate that TM was facing Z when he approached him.

If Z spoke first it would indicate that Z was facing TM when he approached him. This would be contrary to Z's testimony that TM approached him from behind and spoke to him.

Fern

You're still talking about a somewhat different issue here. What I'm discussing is the contradiction between Z's version which has TM approaching him, and that of the gf who has TM trying to get away.

I see your point above, but at best that means the gf's version of who spoke first doesn't contradict Z. It doesn't mean that her entire statement doesn't contradict Z because it most certainly does.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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Well how about that. The lead investigator thought Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...er-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html

What is laughable is everyone around the case knows this guy killed this kid, but they just haven't been able to seal the deal. Its a lot like Drew Peterson, you know he did it, but just haven't found enought to get him yet.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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I don't see how the GF's story refutes anything Zimmerman said, with the possible exception of the details of the remarks exchanged (apparently) immediately preceding the fight.

Zimmerman's friend from the neighborhood (Black guy, former CC anchor) is contending Zimmerman followed the dispatcher's advice to stop following TM. The GF's account does not conflict with Z's testimony that TM approached him from behind, spoke to him, then hit him.

In her version, TM spoke first which I think collaborates that to an extent.



Current reports say Z asked for more medical care after being treated by the EMT's but the police decided to him to the station. Understandably so I think. A broken nose or even a gash requiring a few stitches are not something so medically necessary that the investigation into the shooting death shouldn't take priority. Zimmerman went to the hospital the next morning according to reports.

Also, and IDK what current procedure are, but in the past when dealing with a broken nose I was told at the hospital to go home and return the following day when the swelling had subsided. I.e., they wouldn't treat it right away anyhow.



There is no conflicting testimony.

We have only 2 accounts, that of Zimmerman and a witness named 'John', both of whom reported TM on top of Z beating him.

The kid's (Austin IIRC) testimony does not speak to the fight. Depending upon the version, he either saw 1 or 2 people on the ground but mentioned nothing about anyone hitting anyone.



Forensics can be expected to be helpful here. Unless I'm just watching too many CSI-type TV shows it should not be a problem to determine how close, or far away, TM was when shot.

There are published reports that Z's gun had a full magazine when police checked it. According to reports this likely means one of two things: 1. TM was holding the gun when fired so the slide couldn't fully function, or 2. the magazine came loose and couldn't function properly.

If the above report is true and TM was grabbing the gun forensics will be able to confirm it. He'll have GSR from the blowback and likely scratches/cuts to his hand(s).

Fern
I had the same impression as Wolfe, that in the girlfriend's version Zimmerman approached Martin and (she thought) shoved him. (Could also have been Martin clicking the phone off knowing there's an impending fight.) That's a conflict, although admittedly I've only seen people talking about her testimony; I have not seen a transcript. Also, I thought there was a woman widely derided as an attention whore who claimed that Zimmerman just shot Martin - a Coulter or Culker or something?

If Zimmerman's pistol didn't cycle, that's going to be a big plus in his favor, especially since it should be evident if Martin was indeed holding the pistol when it was fired. That doesn't definitively allow us to separate Martin as aggressor versus Martin desperately trying to not get killed, but it would be hard evidence corroborating Zimmerman's story.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Though it does appear they can't hear "coons" on the call to the dispatcher. Can we say doctored tapes being used to claim race was involved?

CNN enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN's editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus on whether Zimmerman used a slur.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
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In additon

" 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin."

No mention of anyone on top of him.

And we know from the time of the end of the 911 call till the time he was shot is only a minute or so which includes time for the meeting, confrontation, scuffle, and shot and that the truck and the crime scene aren't even close.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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Well how about that. The lead investigator thought Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...er-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html

What is laughable everyone around the case knows this guy killed this kid, but they just haven't been able to seal the deal. Its a lot like Drew Peterson, you know he did it, but just haven't found enought to get him yet.

Only one source reporting this, ABC main, no other local stations are reporting this nor did they run ABC's claim that the two fought over the gun. Could be someone leading ABC around by their nose on purpose.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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I had the same impression as Wolfe, that in the girlfriend's version Zimmerman approached Martin and (she thought) shoved him. (Could also have been Martin clicking the phone off knowing there's an impending fight.) That's a conflict, although admittedly I've only seen people talking about her testimony; I have not seen a transcript. Also, I thought there was a woman widely derided as an attention whore who claimed that Zimmerman just shot Martin - a Coulter or Culker or something?

If Zimmerman's pistol didn't cycle, that's going to be a big plus in his favor, especially since it should be evident if Martin was indeed holding the pistol when it was fired. That doesn't definitively allow us to separate Martin as aggressor versus Martin desperately trying to not get killed, but it would be hard evidence corroborating Zimmerman's story.

Exactly. One problem I see here is that we don't really have a full statement from the GF. Everything we hear is essentially paraphrased. I assume she has been questioned by the authorities by now, but the versions we're reading about in the press are pretty second or third hand.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
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And we know from the time of the end of the 911 call till the time he was shot is only a minute or so which includes time for the meeting, confrontation, scuffle, and shot and that the truck and the crime scene aren't even close.
Yeah cause he was running after him at first then stopped when they told him they don;t need him to do that...duh of course he wasn't right next to his truck and he was a fat ass so the initial run wore him out
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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Only one source reporting this, ABC main, no other local stations are reporting this nor did they run ABC's claim that the two fought over the gun. Could be someone leading ABC around by their nose on purpose.

Oh so ABC is now not credible..................yeah right.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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440
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No, you have the story wrong, not me. The story is that she is telling him to run away from Z, and he says he doesn't want to run, that he's walking fast instead. She furthermore states that he did eventually run, and for a brief time thought he had lost Z. In her version, M is trying to get away from him, not approaching him.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017

As to who starts the conversation, it means nothing. If Z approaches M, either M or Z could start the conversation.

Your timeline is mixed up.

Z is following him in his vehicle as TM is talking to GF. She tells him to run and he does so. This is consistent with GZ's story that he lost TM who he was following in his vehicle has he ran behind some houses.

GZ gets out of the car while talking with 911 dispatch. He may have started to initially follow TM on foot, but at one point the dispatcher tells him not to follow. It is not clear if he started or continued to follow on foot after or prior to the dispatcher advise. GZ claims at that point he was looking for the street sign and was heading back to his vehicle.

From the GF, it is unclear after this what has been said in dialog between her and TM. The next testimony I've seen is that some time has skipped ahead and she describes the altercation between TM and GZ. GZ claims that TM came from behind, said something, he turned around and replied to which TM decked him. GF at this point does not produce testimony that contradicts this claim.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Well how about that. The lead investigator thought Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...er-charge-151838720--abc-news-topstories.html

What is laughable is everyone around the case knows this guy killed this kid, but they just haven't been able to seal the deal. Its a lot like Drew Peterson, you know he did it, but just haven't found enought to get him yet.

Wow... wonder how much Zimmerman's retired magistrate judge father had to do with him not getting convicted...
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
Only one source reporting this, ABC main, no other local stations are reporting this nor did they run ABC's claim that the two fought over the gun. Could be someone leading ABC around by their nose on purpose.
Paying for an "exclusive" has it's privileges...except when it's wrong...it could be right though
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Though it does appear they can't hear "coons" on the call to the dispatcher. Can we say doctored tapes being used to claim race was involved?

I am not aware of any evidence of doctoring. The way I took that statement, CNN was just trying to avoid being accused of taking sides. Obviously the tape is far from being as clear as one might prefer, though I do hear "coons," as has been discussed at length above.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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Your timeline is mixed up.

Z is following him in his vehicle as TM is talking to GF. She tells him to run and he does so. This is consistent with GZ's story that he lost TM who he was following in his vehicle has he ran behind some houses.

GZ gets out of the car while talking with 911 dispatch. He may have started to initially follow TM on foot, but at one point the dispatcher tells him not to follow. It is not clear if he started or continued to follow on foot after or prior to the dispatcher advise. GZ claims at that point he was looking for the street sign and was heading back to his vehicle.

From the GF, it is unclear after this what has been said in dialog between her and TM. The next testimony I've seen is that some time has skipped ahead and she describes the altercation between TM and GZ. GZ claims that TM came from behind, said something, he turned around and replied to which TM decked him. GF at this point does not produce testimony that contradicts this claim.
I missed his reply (damn time warps) but that sums it up nicely...
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
I am not aware of any evidence of doctoring. The way I took that statement, CNN was just trying to avoid being accused of taking sides. Obviously the tape is far from being as clear as one might prefer, though I do hear "coons," as has been discussed at length above.

I know the copy I originally downloaded the night they were released doesn't sound likes coons.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I missed his reply (damn time warps) but that sums it up nicely...


True, but this is only with released hearsay of testimony of the GF. We don't have official transcripts of the testimony of the GF nor a true timeline to match it all up to. But what I posted above seems to be the timeline as it played out.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
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Can you provide a link where Zimmerman is quoted as saying he was attacked from behind? From my understanding, the first blow, according to Zimmerman, was from the front, and that is the blow that likely broke, or at least caused GZ to have a bloody nose. GZ also claims this is the blow that knocked GZ onto his back, which allowed TM to get on top of him and slam the back of GZ's head into the concrete (sidewalk, I believe).

My source - Link. Look below the bolded "One-minute gap"

Sadly the amount of misinformation is rampant.

I am thinking the middle finger Martin was seeded by Martin supporters to make all other pictures seem to be fakes as well.

Many think Zimmerman still looks like those 5 year old pictures and the 'updated' ones were photoshopped.

It's really messed up how trustworthy people feel of the media.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
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True, but this is only with released hearsay of testimony of the GF. We don't have official transcripts of the testimony of the GF nor a true timeline to match it all up to. But what I posted above seems to be the timeline as it played out.
Almost everything we have so far is hearsay, there aren't any "official" transcripts iirc since she hasn't given an official report to authorities yet...I could be wrong on that but I know she's been subpoenaed by the prosecutor
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I know the copy I originally downloaded the night they were released doesn't sound likes coons.

There is some rumor that the one that is clearly 'coons' has been modified. If you search there are some language experts debating it. Unfortunately most of the links erode to those that have no business in the threads.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Your timeline is mixed up.

Z is following him in his vehicle as TM is talking to GF. She tells him to run and he does so. This is consistent with GZ's story that he lost TM who he was following in his vehicle has he ran behind some houses.

GZ gets out of the car while talking with 911 dispatch. He may have started to initially follow TM on foot, but at one point the dispatcher tells him not to follow. It is not clear if he started or continued to follow on foot after or prior to the dispatcher advise. GZ claims at that point he was looking for the street sign and was heading back to his vehicle.

From the GF, it is unclear after this what has been said in dialog between her and TM. The next testimony I've seen is that some time has skipped ahead and she describes the altercation between TM and GZ. GZ claims that TM came from behind, said something, he turned around and replied to which TM decked him. GF at this point does not produce testimony that contradicts this claim.

The time line is not mixed up. It is actually unclear from the fragments of the gf's account that we've been presented with. What we do not see in that account is any reference to anything about pursuing Z, and a statement that Z had "cornered" TM after TM had thought he got away. The best inference from what we have so far from her is that TM was trying to get away the entire time up until Z approached him and M then started the conversation by asking why he was following him.

A more complete statement from the GF would obviously help matters, but what we have right now appears to contradict to Z's account.

- wolf