Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Look, I'm sure that you like to think yourself a "logical" dude who takes positions against the grain because you know, you're so "logical" but really, it's about the justice in a man killing another man in HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE circumstances and him not even going to trial. Laws are malleable, and are merely TOOLS in pursuit of justice. It's utter idiocy to think that the TOOL OF THE LAW is more valuable than justice.

It just doesn't work this way, not often anyway. The prosecutors have professional and legal guidelines/standards that must be met.

As I've said before in this thread, my attorney friends have said when the law results in justice it's coincidental.

I suspect the prosecutors are under enormous pressure. To not charge Z will be terribly unpopular, to say the least. But they also bear a legal burden not to bring charges unless they merited. Unfortunately, merely because someone is dead is not sufficient. If they bring charges that are unwarranted because of popular pressure they face lawsuits and possibly professional sanctions.

I'm sure the original group were quite happy to step aside and let this new crew take over. The FL AG has said on TV she had no jurisdiction to ask them to step aside, instead they volunteered enabling her to go to the governor and get the the new people appointed.

Fern
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
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Are you making shit up? I just thought that said thzt he was suspicious.

I know, it's hard to remember through your fog of bias, but please try.

I am a reasonable person, if I perceive someone as acting erratic potentially on drugs and maybe having something in their wasteband.

Thats a threat by defintion, it doesnt matter if Zimmerman uttered those words its what he described and what he described was threating to reasonable people.

If anyone is bias its you labeling anyone who disagree with you a gun grabber.

I recognize the issue is complex and have adjusted my viewpoints on the issue based on good arguments from the self defense side and new information. Which would indicate that my opinions are flexible and not bias.

You on the other hand get insulting and confrontational when people dont agree with yoru narrow view.

You are now on ignore
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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I don't see how the GF's story refutes anything Zimmerman said, with the possible exception of the details of the remarks exchanged (apparently) immediately preceding the fight.

Yes her version does contradict Z's version. In her version, she is talking to M on the phone and M is trying to get away from Z. She advises him to run, but he says he's walking fast instead. Z's version is that M approaches him, says something to him, then attacks him from behind. This is inconsistent with the behavior that the girlfriend describes.

Furthermore, the fact that M's conversation with the girlfriend was cut short by events does not help Z either. When a call ends abruptly without a "goodbye" that usually means that a circumstance beyond a participants control has caused the call to end. Had M approached Z and intended to talk to him and/or attack him, he likely would have ended the call to the girlfriend before it started.
 
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umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
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What he says during the call to police dispatch seems to support that as the more likely scenario

Listen to the entire 911 call, not just the first minute. The call continues for another couple of minutes, all of which is still spent on foot. His call ends with him telling the dispatcher NOT to have the cops stop at his parked truck next to the clubhouse and to call him on his cell for and he'll tell them where his is at now.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
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Attorney's are not judges and juries though. You actually sometimes need trials to find out if a crime was committed... They don't convict on the spot, but in this case they let the case unravel the moment they didn't arrest him.

The States Attorneys actually at times DO get to choose.

if they decided its OK, then well, guess what. the state isnt pressing charges which sets precedent right there.

juries dont get to decide what is law either(they get to at times though) o_O

if the SA decides it doesnt pass the sniff test they wont try it, thereby defacto making it not a crime.

also by not 'going out on a limb' on one, they can depending on the purported crime and its statue of limitation(akaik murder doesnt have SL), can go back and try again later, especially if new evidence is found, preventing double jeopardy issues

Listen to the entire 911 call, not just the first minute. The call continues for another couple of minutes, all of which is still spent on foot. His call ends with him telling the dispatcher NOT to have the cops stop at his parked truck next to the clubhouse and to call him on his cell for and he'll tell them where his is at now.


can you link to that? Would like to read it
 
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corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
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The kid's (Austin IIRC) testimony does not speak to the fight. Depending upon the version, he either saw 1 or 2 people on the ground but mentioned nothing about anyone hitting anyone.
I've seen the kid interviewed directly and he says he saw a guy on the ground with a red shirt...Z was in red, other than that he wasn't clear.
Yes her version does contradict Z's version. In her version, she is talking to M on the phone and M is trying to get away from Z. She advises him to run, but he says he's walking fast instead. Z's version is that M approaches him, says something to him, then attacks him from behind. This is inconsistent with the behavior that the girlfriend describes.
Which is EXACTLY what she describes, M say "why are you following me? followed by another voice saying "what are you doing around here? Damn if you're going to quote something at least know what they said
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
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Listen to the entire 911 call, not just the first minute. The call continues for another couple of minutes, all of which is still spent on foot. His call ends with him telling the dispatcher NOT to have the cops stop at his parked truck next to the clubhouse and to call him on his cell for and he'll tell them where his is at now.

In additon

" 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin."

No mention of anyone on top of him.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
Listen to the entire 911 call, not just the first minute. The call continues for another couple of minutes, all of which is still spent on foot. His call ends with him telling the dispatcher NOT to have the cops stop at his parked truck next to the clubhouse and to call him on his cell for and he'll tell them where his is at now.
Maybe because after running his fat ass is tired so he's walking slowly now...at which point T comes up to him at which time the conversation the GF recites happens
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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Yes her version does contradict Z's version. In her version, she is talking to M on the phone and M is trying to get away from Z. She advises him to run, but he says he's walking fast instead. Z's version is that M approaches him, says something to him, then attacks him from behind. This is inconsistent with the behavior that the girlfriend describes.
-snip-

No, that's not Z's version.

Z has said TM approached him from behind and then they spoke and T decked him in the nose breaking it.

You cannot hit someone in the nose, breaking it, from behind them.

Fern
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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In additon

" 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin."

No mention of anyone on top of him.
So more support for Z being beaten and down, what's your point? Oh that T wasn't on top of him at the exact moment? Maybe he stepped off for a second then came back at him? Forensics would show beyond a doubt if it was close range so he wasn't shot from a distance
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
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I've seen the kid interviewed directly and he says he saw a guy on the ground with a red shirt...Z was in red, other than that he wasn't clear.

Which is EXACTLY what she describes, M say "why are you following me? followed by another voice saying "what are you doing around here? Damn if you're going to quote something at least know what they said

I didn't misquote anything. Show me what I misquoted.

I fail to see the relevance of M making the first remark in the conversation because it resolves nothing. The critical issue here is who started the physical altercation because there are no eye witnesses as to how it got started. My point is that the girlfriend's account describes behavior that is not consistent with M having started the fight. He's telling her that he's walking away fast. Yet Z says M approached him. Either M was lying to his gf, or Z is lying.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
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I didn't misquote anything. Show me what I misquoted.

I fail to see the relevance of M making the first remark in the conversation because it resolves nothing. The critical issue here is who started the physical altercation because there are no eye witnesses as to how it got started. My point is that the girlfriend's account describes behavior that is not consistent with M having started the fight. He's telling her that he's walking away fast. Yet Z says M approached him. Either M was lying to his gf, or Z is lying.
Your whole story was wrong...he says he's walking fast not away....and him starting the talking first indicates he is coming up to him rather than being "caught" by Z
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
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In additon

" 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description (you mean with the red shirt on? LOL)lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin."

No mention of anyone on top of him.

So? no mention of someone standing there or leaving the scene either,

The fog of bias is strong in this one.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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No, that's not Z's version.

Z has said TM approached him from behind and then they spoke and T decked him in the nose breaking it.

You cannot hit someone in the nose, breaking it, from behind them.

Fern

You're addressing a different issue than what my post was about. You said that M's gf's version did not contradict Z's version. That is incorrect. In Z's version M approaches Z. In the gf's version M is telling her that he is walking fast, trying to get away from Z.

- wolf
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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I didn't misquote anything. Show me what I misquoted.

I fail to see the relevance of M making the first remark in the conversation because it resolves nothing.
-snip-

It would indicate that TM was facing Z when he approached him.

If Z spoke first it would indicate that Z was facing TM when he approached him. This would be contrary to Z's testimony that TM approached him from behind and spoke to him.

Fern
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
So more support for Z being beaten and down, what's your point? Oh that T wasn't on top of him at the exact moment? Maybe he stepped off for a second then came back at him? Forensics would show beyond a doubt if it was close range so he wasn't shot from a distance


My point is if in Fact Martin was not on top of him when he fired self defense it out the window. Austin doesnt metion seeing martin, Just Zimmerman laying on the ground, then a few seconds later a shot.

I agree Forensics should be able to tell if he was 6" or 6'
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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My point is if in Fact Martin was not on top of him when he fired self defense it out the window. Austin doesnt metion seeing martin, Just Zimmerman laying on the ground, then a few seconds later a shot.

I agree Forensics should be able to tell if he was 6" or 6'
That I absolutely agree with...but I can't see any way that they wouldn't know that by now and if so there would be no way they wouldn't have charged him so that just doesn't pass the reality test on those grounds alone
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
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Your whole story was wrong...he says he's walking fast not away....and him starting the talking first indicates he is coming up to him rather than being "caught" by Z

No, you have the story wrong, not me. The story is that she is telling him to run away from Z, and he says he doesn't want to run, that he's walking fast instead. She furthermore states that he did eventually run, and for a brief time thought he had lost Z. In her version, M is trying to get away from him, not approaching him.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017

As to who starts the conversation, it means nothing. If Z approaches M, either M or Z could start the conversation.

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/?hpt=hp_t2

Now they're trying to change it from "Why are you following me?" to "Why are you stopping me?"

"What are you stopping me for?" Martin asked Zimmerman, according to the girl.

Too bad the video with the recording the girl stated "Why are you following me?"

I also like the Cutcher and roommate stating that they could clearly see Zimmerman standing over Trayvon yet it was too dark to see any injuries.

They looked out the window but saw nothing. It was dark.
They ran out the sliding glass door, and within seconds, they saw Zimmerman.

The two women said they could not see whether Zimmerman was bruised or hurt. It was too dark.

On the 911 tapes the calls for help were very clear yet they only heard crying/whining

"We heard a whining. Not like a crying, boohoo, but like a whining, someone in distress, and then the gunshot," she said.