Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Lotus,

If the event played out according the Zimmerman's account of the incident, the only "avoidable" action that could have been done was in the hands of TM. Which was not to approach GZ, or attack him. The more articles I read, and evidence I've seen leads credence to that GZ did in fact stop pursuit at the request of the 911 dispatcher. Still that is based on what has been leaked to the media.

if it went down like Zimmerman says then TM made a mistake that costs him his life.

That said I am not for a law that allows Zimmerman to identify martin as suspcious, Potentially armed, on drugs acting erratic and pursure him.

Thats law enforcements Job, Zimmerman had no evidence a crime was in progress or that Martin was engaged in any crime so he had no duty to do anything other than call the police which he did.

And while he legally may not be found culpable in Martins death.

Standing down and allowing police to do their job, not getting out of his car to try and follow a guy he already labled as a threat would have changed the outcome.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. You don't know how the fight started. For all we know, Zimmerman waved his gun in the kid's face and dared him to punch him.

The problem is that you're completely certain when Zimmerman has no proof as to the start of the fight. None whatsoever.

That is enough for a trial I believe.

And you are using the same methodology in your conclusions.

You feel Zimmerman's a liar because the media told you to. Do you have an evidence or seen any that questions the truthfulness of Zimmerman's accounting?

Oh, and there is more evidence that has been leaked than just a summation of Zimmerman's story of the incident. All of which thus far has corroborated Zimmerman's story. Unless you can show otherwise?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
A grown man who attacks a kid isn't innocent either. Wonder how quickly he got that assault charge cleared, guess its good thing daddy was there to make it go away.

Evidence of your claim? So far there is zero evidence of a crime committed by zimmerman, and many sources of evidence of a crime committed by Martin.

Let's stick to the facts and evidence, ok?
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
The law is what is standing in the way of an arrest in this highly questionable case. You only have Zimmerman's word on what happened, but obviously he has ample incentive to lie.

we will see if the witness testimony stuff does back him or not.

I am guessing that if it didnt he would be in jail already

I have no problem with a law allowing someone who is receiving a vicious life threatening beat down to use a gun in self defense, especially when it is over 'following them' through the gated communtiy

Not just to prevent mob violence, but it is a legitimate concern, and the crowds do have a legitimate case. To not have a trial after a killing like this is just wrong.

if he didnt break the law then there isnt a trial. thats how its supposed to work.

this case is highlighting alot of issues, the communitys response and the media coverage are the big ones, the law isnt.

if I see someone on my street walking around at night I dont recongize and say something to them, I dont think its OK for them to beat the shit out of me. its their right to ignore me, and I will just call the cops. If im on my property and its late at night, I'll probably be carrying. that doesnt mean I went out there looking to shoot them
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
You're not interested in justice.

Frankly, you're automatically believing what this guy says even though he has no proof and has all the incentive in the world to lie
The physical evidence and witness testimony seems to back him up...unless you want to just ignore that too
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
No he was in no danger until T came up behind him and started throwing punches...at least that's the facts as we know them now.

He had labeled martin as on drugs, acting odd and having something in his wasteband. thats a threat by defintion.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Sidenote, I loathe having to side in any argument with Spidey07. Damnit though, it's happened a few too many times lately. When did spidey07 start actually being right about topics lately?
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Evidence of your claim? So far there is zero evidence of a crime committed by zimmerman, and many sources of evidence of a crime committed by Martin.

Let's stick to the facts and evidence, ok?

Well conveniently the only other person in this incident turned up dead. So Zimmerman can make up whatever and people just nod and go "Good, one less black person."
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
we will see if the witness testimony stuff does back him or not.

I am guessing that if it didnt he would be in jail already

I have no problem with a law allowing someone who is receiving a vicious life threatening beat down to use a gun in self defense, especially when it is over 'following them' through the gated communtiy



if he didnt break the law then there isnt a trial. thats how its supposed to work.

this case is highlighting alot of issues, the communitys response and the media coverage are the big ones, the law isnt.

if I see someone on my street walking around at night I dont recongize and say something to them, I dont think its OK for them to beat the shit out of me. its their right to ignore me, and I will just call the cops. If im on my property and its late at night, I'll probably be carrying. that doesnt mean I went out there looking to shoot them

Attorney's are not judges and juries though. You actually sometimes need trials to find out if a crime was committed... They don't convict on the spot, but in this case they let the case unravel the moment they didn't arrest him.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Sidenote, I loathe having to side in any argument with Spidey07. Damnit though, it's happened a few too many times lately. When did spidey07 start actually being right about topics lately?

While he may be correct as far as the law in this case in concerned he is not right by any stretch.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
Sidenote, I loathe having to side in any argument with Spidey07. Damnit though, it's happened a few too many times lately. When did spidey07 start actually being right about topics lately?
Well the end of the world is coming right, had to happen at least once before then...
He had labeled martin as on drugs, acting odd and having something in his wasteband. thats a threat by defintion.
He had voiced suspicions, there was no danger until it was brought upon him...and following someone is not illegal or morally wrong in any way.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Well the end of the world is coming right, had to happen at least once before then...

He had voiced suspicions, there was no danger until it was brought upon him...and following someone is not illegal or morally wrong in any way.

Threat
an indication or warning of probable trouble.

By Zimmernas 911 calls he thought Martin was a threat.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
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based on Zimmerman's suspicions, I believe Zimmerman was far more aggressive than he is putting forth.


Man you have said the EXACT same things over and over and over since the beginning of this thread. Just because you say them a lot doesn't make them true, and all you post are your own "suspicions" with absolutely no facts whatsoever to back them up.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,319
9,171
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Man you have said the EXACT same things over and over and over since the beginning of this thread. Just because you say them a lot doesn't make them true, and all you post are your own "suspicions" with absolutely no facts whatsoever to back them up.

You meant to quote spidey and this was a time warp, right?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,240
5,810
126
Man you have said the EXACT same things over and over and over since the beginning of this thread. Just because you say them a lot doesn't make them true, and all you post are your own "suspicions" with absolutely no facts whatsoever to back them up.

Zimmerman's own words backs up his words.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. You don't know how the fight started. For all we know, Zimmerman waved his gun in the kid's face and dared him to punch him.

The problem is that you're completely certain when Zimmerman has no proof as to the start of the fight. None whatsoever.

That is enough for a trial I believe.

It doesn't matter what you, me, or anybody else thinks. They have a special task force working on it. Why it's taking so long to figure out is anybody's guess.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Man you have said the EXACT same things over and over and over since the beginning of this thread. Just because you say them a lot doesn't make them true, and all you post are your own "suspicions" with absolutely no facts whatsoever to back them up.

Well Zimmerman in the 911 calls expressed concern, frustration and backed it up by getting out of his car to find the guy.

The same guy who armed with a loaded 9mm said these assholes always get away proceeding to follow Martin, Found him and was docile and not threating in any way.

While there is no evidence he was anything other than that, his own actions cast doubt on his version.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...n-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T3Ie0nhfZ8n

One guy wanted to bring him up on manslaughter.

man this thread is getting bad now. You guys are seriously painting Martin as a thug when he has zero violence on his record? It's all about being for the guy with the gun...


Isn't it odd that only ABC is reporting this and not a local ABC station or other local stations. I will laugh my ass off when the real evidence comes out and none of this is true.

According to the police reports Zimmerman was taken into custody, provided first aid by the fire department, and then taken to the police station where he was questioned. I find it hard to believe they didn't wait for the homicide detective to arrive at the station to question him.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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We don't KNOW that. The girl friend's testimony (to the degree it has been factually reported) refutes this story directly, and she certainly has less reason to lie than does Zimmerman.

I don't see how the GF's story refutes anything Zimmerman said, with the possible exception of the details of the remarks exchanged (apparently) immediately preceding the fight.

Zimmerman's friend from the neighborhood (Black guy, former CC anchor) is contending Zimmerman followed the dispatcher's advice to stop following TM. The GF's account does not conflict with Z's testimony that TM approached him from behind, spoke to him, then hit him.

In her version, TM spoke first which I think collaborates that to an extent.

We know the paramedics treated him and that he did not seek medical care that night. We don't know WHY - maybe he was too shook up, maybe it was fear of the costs - but we don't know that his injuries are as extensive as they are being reported. We DO know Zimmerman was taken into custody, at which point had his injuries been judged serious he would have been taken for care regardless of insurance because while he's in custody he's the police department's responsibility. That does not suggest to me a broken nose and a head repeatedly slammed into a concrete sidewalk, but we don't KNOW.

Current reports say Z asked for more medical care after being treated by the EMT's but the police decided to him to the station. Understandably so I think. A broken nose or even a gash requiring a few stitches are not something so medically necessary that the investigation into the shooting death shouldn't take priority. Zimmerman went to the hospital the next morning according to reports.

Also, and IDK what current procedure are, but in the past when dealing with a broken nose I was told at the hospital to go home and return the following day when the swelling had subsided. I.e., they wouldn't treat it right away anyhow.

As for Zimmerman being attacked, we don't know that either. We know what it's been reported he said, but again, we supposedly have conflicting testimony.

There is no conflicting testimony.

We have only 2 accounts, that of Zimmerman and a witness named 'John', both of whom reported TM on top of Z beating him.

The kid's (Austin IIRC) testimony does not speak to the fight. Depending upon the version, he either saw 1 or 2 people on the ground but mentioned nothing about anyone hitting anyone.

We don't yet know conclusively that Martin was still attacking Zimmerman at the time he was shot. I don't find that too difficult to believe; it's a lot easier to hold a pistol by its handle than to take it away. The police probably have an opinion by now, due to the severity, location, and spread of the powder burns, but even here we may well have dueling expert witnesses if this goes to trial.

Forensics can be expected to be helpful here. Unless I'm just watching too many CSI-type TV shows it should not be a problem to determine how close, or far away, TM was when shot.

There are published reports that Z's gun had a full magazine when police checked it. According to reports this likely means one of two things: 1. TM was holding the gun when fired so the slide couldn't fully function, or 2. the magazine came loose and couldn't function properly.

If the above report is true and TM was grabbing the gun forensics will be able to confirm it. He'll have GSR from the blowback and likely scratches/cuts to his hand(s).

Fern
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Threat
an indication or warning of probable trouble.

By Zimmernas 911 calls he thought Martin was a threat.

Are you making shit up? I just thought that said thzt he was suspicious.

I know, it's hard to remember through your fog of bias, but please try.