Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

Page 2756 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Isn't it ironic that the public lynching (with DOJ stamp of approval on it) of a Hispanic, liberal, black-dating, black-mentoring, Obama-voting social justice warrior for black homeless men, registered democrat, man who was the biggest supporter his gay brother had when he came out... and man who pushed for the rest of his family to vote for Obama too...

... is being used as a basis to have a national conversation on racism, and try to repeal a law that wasn't involved in the case other than in the imaginations of gun grabbers?

... after this man was attacked by a racial-epithet spewing, violent, and hateful criminal?

Obama: "Thanks for your vote, George! Now hold still while I roll out all the power and credibility of the united states government to bring about your personal destruction!"
LOL It is indeed ironic.

That's a good point. I supported Obama's first statement; I do not support this one, as I think it's unsupportable. But as you say, it IS a speech, no doubt made to advance a political agenda, and in that context it's not terribly over the top. There is one difference here though; the President's rhetoric may well help convince someone to turn to violence for "revenge" or "social justice."

Wow. While the President has 1st ammendment rights like the next person the Presidential Podium isn't a place to exercise opinion. His job is to uphold the laws and rules of the land. I am appauled he continues to offer a slanted view of this case--specifically where are the words about the right to self defense, that he "could have been a home owner on a watch," etc? How about chastizing the Holder and the DOJ for defying a jury's unanimous verdict of "not guilty" by saying the shooting was unecessary?

The other day I wrote a Q&A for someone looking at what would have been the legal recourse if Martin was NOT shot. When looking at it from that perspective I think it is palpably obvious the jury was correct.

Q: Assume the same series of events with one exception: Martin was never shot by Zimmerman. In this scenario just prior to pulling his firearm Zimmerman heard the police, no longer feared the next punch could knock him unconscious and he be left unprotected, and the police instead arrived moments later. Assuming all the same evidence as presented in this case what would have happened if Zimmerman had not shot Martin?

A: The police would have arrested Martin and charges of assault and battery would have been filed.

Martin’s “best case” scenario presented by the State was Martin could contest he was in a legal place (his community) doing nothing illegal when he was thrust into a compromised situation (a minor being followed by an armed stranger on a dark, rainy night) when he was accosted aggressively by Zimmerman. Even if Martin told the police Zimmerman verbally threatened him (there are no witnesses or evidence of such) the above scenario would not protect Martin from charges as the material evidence is substantial. Zimmerman contradicts Martin and claims Martin was the aggressor and assaulted him (again, there is no evidence of who started the fight) but significantly Martin had no signs of injuries, Zimmerman had multiple facial injuries, and there is a witness to Martin mounting Zimmerman. And in this scenario the police arrived when the two parties in the position of the shooting: Martin on top of Zimmerman (as shown by the forensic evidence).

In this scenario Martin’s motives and actions can be called into question and challenged. The police would have also asked some pressing questions: Why did Martin not run home if he was so afraid? He had a right to be where he was but if he was afraid enough to motivate a physical altercation why did he not run home? Martin was obviously much faster than Zimmerman. The police would have also asked: If you were afraid of Zimmerman, why did you continue to talk on the phone to friends instead of calling 911? In this scenario Martin had multiple avenues to avert the physical confrontation. Some evidence indicates that Martin may have even turned back to confront Zimmerman instead of seeking a safe ground (which nullifies a self-defense claim).

The next issue is the nature of Martin’s self-defense claim. Many have suggested Martin acted in legal self-defense. But as this case highlights, even though no physical harm had to occur, there had to remain a reasonable fear of imminent death or significant bodily harm and the individual would have had to retreat as much as possible. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that Zimmerman posed a reasonable threat that a normal person would fear for their life or fear great bodily harm. Following someone and keeping an eye on them until LEO arrives is not a crime--Zimmerman had every right to do this. (Martin's guardians should have alerted him to the presence of the local watch.)

Further, as outlined in this case, someone claiming self-defense must retreat. The State’s presentation, at best, fails to show Martin had no reasonable means of retreat. Even if a claim of Stand Your Ground was presented there remains no evidence Zimmerman presented a threat or that Martin stood his ground and warned Zimmerman prior to the physical contact (we are back to the “there is no evidence”—so even if this happened Martin would be in the same boat as Zimmerman.) Unlike Zimmerman who claims he cried for help and had injuries consistent with assault plus a witness to the assault Martin has no evidence he took the legal steps to claim SYG or self-defense.

And this is a best case scenario of claiming self-defense.

If Martin was afraid why did he not flee after knocking Zimmerman to the ground? Why did he not get off and flee when Zimmerman cried repeatedly for help? The last two points are contested as, again, there is no direct evidence Martin knocked Zimmerman down first or that it was Zimmerman, not Martin, screaming for help. But if the police arrived and no shooting occurred undoubtedly, considering Martin mounting Zimmerman and the fact Zimmerman was injured and Martin was not, there is incontrovertible evidence that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman and no evidence that Zimmerman had harmed Martin.

If the tragic shooting had not occurred Martin’s history would have become evidence: his phone, his Facebook, his Twitter, his school records and expulsion, etc. Specifically his history of fighting, brandishing stolen weapons, illegal drug use, and possible stolen goods. In this context Martin’s racial comments to Ms. Jenteal and her belief this was (paraphrase), “Just another fight” bode very poorly to corroborate Martin’s case. In fact the racial slur toward Zimmerman could be grounds for a civil rights violation against Zimmerman (would the FBI and DOJ be called in?)

In Florida Martin would not need to prove self-defense. Martin would only have to cast reasonable doubt on Zimmerman’s claim that Martin assaulted him. The problem is, if the tables were flipped, Martin (unlike Zimmerman) has no signs of injuries. Further, there is no evidence that Martin could not retreat. Martin, unlike Zimmerman, did not notify the police of suspicious activity. There are no witnesses Martin warned Zimmerman before SYG. And unless Zimmerman presented his firearm (no evidence of such until the shooting) there is no founding to self-defense based on a citizen exercising a valid conceal and carry. Martin could present all the same talking points as the State, but with the same material evidence none of it rises to the level of, “Reasonable doubt.” There is no way around the fact Martin had many attempts to retreat (Martin had this responsibility) and Martin had ample opportunity to contact Law Enforcement. If Martin had not been shot, with the limited witnesses and evidence, there is an extremely strong case Martin assaulted Zimmerman.
Pretty much, but I can spin it another way as well. Martin was followed by an older man. Spooked, he fled to a place he thought was safe, then relaxed, only to find himself followed. Face to face with his hostile adult aggressor, he turned to violence in the honest belief that either he defeated this aggressor or else he faced likely death or serious injury.

That scenario spun out by a sharp lawyer would convince me to give Martin a pass, were I a juror.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Isn't it ironic that the public lynching (with DOJ stamp of approval on it) of a Hispanic, liberal, black-dating, black-mentoring, Obama-voting social justice warrior for black homeless men, registered democrat, man who was the biggest supporter his gay brother had when he came out... and man who pushed for the rest of his family to vote for Obama too...

... is being used as a basis to have a national conversation on racism, and try to repeal a law that wasn't involved in the case other than in the imaginations of gun grabbers?

... after this man was attacked by a racial-epithet spewing, violent, and hateful criminal?

Obama: "Thanks for your vote, George! Now hold still while I roll out all the power and credibility of the united states government to bring about your personal destruction!"
Zimmerman is just an insignificant pawn to this administration. It's frightening to see the true colors of our dear leader and his good buddy Mr. Holder.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Pretty much, but I can spin it another way as well. Martin was followed by an older man. Spooked, he fled to a place he thought was safe, then relaxed, only to find himself followed. Face to face with his hostile adult aggressor, he turned to violence in the honest belief that either he defeated this aggressor or else he faced likely death or serious injury.

For a very long time now I've been firmly convinced that Trayvon was never afraid of George in the sense most people mean. I think he was worried about getting busted with something incriminating on his person (which ended up on Brandi Green's porch and/or in the bushes as mentioned by Serino)

Remember, Deedee just described in an interview, I believe on Piers Morgan, that "cracker" in this context meant "someone actin' like they the police" - this would seem to reinforce my belief that Trayvon knew what capacity GZ was acting in, and what GZ's agenda was.

I think Trayvon was fed up. Fed up with yet another suspension, fed up with his parents' meager efforts at discipline (especially searching him for weed before he went to Sanford) and generally fed up with adults who attempted to impose any sort of consequences or accountability on his serially delinquent behaviors.

I think Zimmerman was basically the last straw. He sees this "cracka" eye-balling him from a truck, in this gated community... in a neighborhood which was much whiter than where Trayvon normally lived in Miami Gardens (I believe) and I think he sized GZ up pretty accurately. Some nosey cracka dogging me, keeping an eye on me, trying to get me busted. Busted YET again. Trying to make me lose the small amount of weed I was able to sneak up here to Sanford by hiding it in my ass. (this seems to be backed up by texts)

As OCNewbie has pointed out, we can hear Trayvon in the background (though we can't understand his words) at the point in the NEN call when GZ is saying "just get an officer out here" - this fits exactly what GZ describes. He says that is when TM came back out from the "T" junction area, and circled his car. This would have been when TM was closest to his window. When he was reaching in his waistband, etc... trying to intimidate GZ.

The very reason GZ elevates his voice when he says "just get an officer out here" and the reason we can hear fear in his voice when he says it, is that Trayvon was approaching his window and trying to say something to him (again, you REALLY can hear him in the background) I'm guessing it was probably something like "you got a problem?" etc.

Why does GZ raise his voice when he says "get an officer out here" ? In the hopes Trayvon will hear it. Trayvon DID hear it, and understood the word "officer" at the very least. This is exactly when he runs. He runs because he hears "officer" and is worried a cop may be near. It did exactly what GZ intended, and scared Trayvon off.

GZ's big mistake was assuming Trayvon would keep running til he left the gates. That's what made him think he could safely get out of the car and keep an eye out, try to get a vantage point on the southeast "back" gate from Retreat View Circle at the east end of the "T"

I believe most of the fine details of this are lost to GZ's poor memory due to the trauma of the whole thing. I admit there's speculation here, but it fits the evidence and common sense.

I believe TM noticed GZ at the "T" area when he was about to go into Brandi Green's place, because he could see GZ's keychain flashlight and possibly the briefly-pseudo-functional larger flashlight, and maybe even hear GZ a little bit - from Brandi's or near there. I believe he dropped off whatever incriminating items he had (blunts from the 7-11 guys, whatever else) on her porch, accounting for her statement the next morning "He was sittin' out here on the porch" (Brandi and Tracy found something he left there and will take it to their grave)

I believe the same lack of impulse control which led to all those suspensions, and Tracy Martin's 2010 Facebook rant about Trayvon being out of control... led to Trayvon's final, fatal impulsive, hot-headed choice. He couldn't resist the opportunity to go dish out some retribution on the nosey guy who was eyeballing him.

So no, I don't think Trayvon was ever "afraid" in the way people imply. I think he was concerned, annoyed, mad, frustrated, angry, and irritated. Not scared, not afraid.

bU4sFOp.png
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Link? I'd like to read that.

http://www.re-newsit.com/2012/06/tracy-martin-facebook-posts-from-2010.html

tracymartinfacebook.png


Part of what's missing from that image is the starting message which was:

Tracy Martin said:
"i need time to myself 2day!!!!!! my son think imma damn fool! this is the part i hate in our father to son relationship! when you start telling lies about nothing you gone walk you ass into an ass cuttin! be honest with your old boy and you wont have to get yelled at like a negro in the streets!"

I wouldn't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill here but it's an interesting little insight into Trayvon getting increasingly out of control. The image link which included the screen cap of that message seems to have gone bad since last year.
 
Last edited:

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Fucking Obama stirring up shit. Would you have beat the shit out of a man for following you MR. President? Go fuck yourself.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,326
136

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Is Obama trying to incite a race war so he can implement martial law and deploy his personal army (DHS) or something? Dude needs to keep that dick hole on his face shut.

Had nothing to do with race but that's all ANYONE is talking about.
 

Darkman

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2013
4,033
0
0
Zimmerman Case – The MDSPD Cover Up and Post Trial Open Discussion Thread

Posted on July 19, 2013 by sundance

The Miami Dade cover-up: LOOK AT PAGE 98 OF THE AFFIDAVIT FOR THE POLICE REPORT ON THE MARIJUANA: This is the incident that led to the final School suspension prior to Trayvon’s trip to Sanford.

Look at date of incident. Look at how it was classified. Look at the date of disposition.

Remember Trayvon was shot on 2/26/12.

 

Darkman

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2013
4,033
0
0

Posted on July 19, 2013 by sundance


First the basics:

My first question is to either of you Tracy or Sybrina: Where exactly was Trayvon living prior to his trip to Sanford florida?​

Follow up – Trayvon’s aunt and uncle, Tracy’s brother and sister-in-law, have stated Trayvon was living with them, and their son Stephen “Boobie” Martin, at the time. Why was that?​

Mr. Martin – Why was Trayvon in Sanford Florida at the time of his death? Continue reading →

 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Fucking Obama stirring up shit. Would you have beat the shit out of a man for following you MR. President? Go fuck yourself.

That is the point.
Don't want people focusing on the budget, the debt, Benghazi, Egypt, Syria, Iraq/Afghanistan, Iran, the IRS, Snowden, Russia, China, ect.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
“If I see any violence, then I will remind folks that that dishonors what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family.”

This is what the pres said during the speech. As if the violence is between the attacker and the Martin's? Maybe I'm reading to much into it, I hope so.
 

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
54
91
The president was smokin weed flippin' birds I'm sure of it, most of us were like this as kids.

Don't forget he is a lawyer at trade, he knows the law probably better then most around him.

Could Trayvon have "stood his ground"? OF course, the law says he can! If AZ was banging his head against the concrete after stalking him, Trayvon could have done the same thing.

Obama just played the race card. Nothing he said appeared to be inaccurate, but it was certainly divisive to those who are sensitive to the TM/AZ thing.

But here's the problem, and its a BIG one.

This is not about RACE. it's about POVERTY.

Poverty overly affects black people, especially in urban environments.

Poverty is in black culture (and white culture as well), through media/art/music, because of it's prevalence. Poverty is CELEBRATED through these art forms, and permeated across all races.

With a celebrated culture, many will IDENTIFY themselves with this culture. This is why we have black people have the stygma of being thugs, EBT card hoarders, lazy, etc. etc. etc., because of Poverty Culture.

Guess what...white people have the same issue to. Look at all the "Redneck etc." TV shows that are so popular right now, look at all that white trash stuff, it's no different. And guess what, white people are celebrating it and turning it into popular culture, which is NOT a good thing. fighting, alcoholism, meth, hating the government, etc.

So instead of Obama coming out and saying, "Culture is responsible for these perceptions" he says, "I'm black, Trayvon Martin is black. Therefore I am Trayvon Martin."

Fuck that logic, Mr President you should be better then that.
 

Darkman

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2013
4,033
0
0
Trayvon's parents respond to President Obama calls for 'soul searching' on racial issues

Hoping to provide "context" to the Travyon Martin controversy, President Obama made a surprise appearance in the White House briefing room Friday. He said black Americans feel pain after the verdict because of a "history that doesn't go away." (July 19)

By Iliana Limón and Arelis R. Hernández, Staff Writers
4:43 p.m. EDT, July 19, 2013

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...artin-zimmerman-20130719,0,1202429,full.story
 

Darkman

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2013
4,033
0
0
Nationwide vigil for Trayvon Martin set for Saturday

National Action Network organizers plan to gather on the steps of the federal courthouse Saturday at noon.

By Arelis R. Hernández, Orlando Sentinel
3:52 p.m. EDT, July 19, 2013


A week to the day George Zimmerman was acquitted of second degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, thousands are expected to gather at federal buildings in 100 cities across the country for a Saturday vigil that will renew calls for a full civil rights investigation by the Department of Justice.

The National Action Network, a civil rights organization founded by the Rev. Al Sharpton, organized the event to call on clergy and the community to pray for justice.

National and local civil rights leaders are concentrating the momentum fomented by the not-guilty verdict to mobilize a campaign against "stand your ground" laws, voting rights and gun-violence issues in the next few weeks leading up to the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington on Aug. 24.

Read more: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...rayvon-vigil-orlando-20130719,0,4465457.story
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Zimmerman Defense Comments on President Obama’s Remarks

We have listened to President Obama’s comments about the verdict in the Zimmerman Case. People are focusing on this quote: “Trayvon Martin could’ve been me 35 years ago.” To focus on this one line misses the nuances of the President’s message, which includes comments about how African Americans view the Zimmerman Case in the context of the history of racial disparity in America.

For more than a year, we have been listening to the conversation about this case -- from voices on every side -- and we have become very sensitive to the racial context that surrounds this case. We acknowledge Mr. Obama’s remarks regarding the frustration felt by some when viewed in context of our nation’s history, which includes racial insensitivities spanning generations, and existing even today, including within our criminal justice system.

While we acknowledge and understand the racial context of this case, we challenge people to look closely and dispassionately at the facts. We believe those who look at the facts of the case without prejudice will see that it is a clear case of self-defense, and we are certain that those who take a closer look at the kind of person George Zimmerman is -- something we understand the Department of Justice is currently doing -- we are confident they will find a young man with with a diverse ethnic and racial background who is not a racist, a man who is, in fact, sensitive to the complex racial history of our country.

It takes courage to talk about race. It took courage for our President to address the Zimmerman Case and candidly discuss how and why people are upset by the verdict. We would like to stress that the verdict was reached fairly and justly and that it reflects the letter of the law and represents the law’s proper application to the facts. While we acknowledge the racial context of the case, we hope that the President was not suggesting that this case fits a pattern of racial disparity, because we strongly contend that it does not.

This case has given the nation an opportunity to have a candid conversation about race. We would like to contribute to this discourse. Our President has clearly indicated he is willing to contribute to the discourse. As we begin this conversation, we want to say this: we cannot talk about race in sound bites. Before you cast an opinion about what the President said, be sure to listen to his comments in full. Before you judge George Zimmerman or disparage the verdict of the citizen jury, understand the facts in full. Agree not to listen to just what meets your predisposition, but to accept what exists.

Only in this way can we assure that the conversations we want to have, that we need to have, will be attended and listened to by those whose presence is necessary for a full discourse -- a discourse that can have positive consequences for our growth as a nation.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
:D Samuel L. Jackson rules. His part in "The long kiss goodnight" was one of the best I've seen done in an action movie, but then he's done so many great roles. He also has one of the best quotes ever: "I would like to think because of the things I did, my daughter can do the things that she does. She barely has a recognition that she's black." This should be the point of all civil rights movements - not to guarantee your children special treatment, but to guarantee your children don't need special treatment.

LOL ...

And I could've had a V-8 :biggrin:
LOL

The president was smokin weed flippin' birds I'm sure of it, most of us were like this as kids.

Don't forget he is a lawyer at trade, he knows the law probably better then most around him.

Could Trayvon have "stood his ground"? OF course, the law says he can! If AZ was banging his head against the concrete after stalking him, Trayvon could have done the same thing.

Obama just played the race card. Nothing he said appeared to be inaccurate, but it was certainly divisive to those who are sensitive to the TM/AZ thing.

But here's the problem, and its a BIG one.

This is not about RACE. it's about POVERTY.

Poverty overly affects black people, especially in urban environments.

Poverty is in black culture (and white culture as well), through media/art/music, because of it's prevalence. Poverty is CELEBRATED through these art forms, and permeated across all races.

With a celebrated culture, many will IDENTIFY themselves with this culture. This is why we have black people have the stygma of being thugs, EBT card hoarders, lazy, etc. etc. etc., because of Poverty Culture.

Guess what...white people have the same issue to. Look at all the "Redneck etc." TV shows that are so popular right now, look at all that white trash stuff, it's no different. And guess what, white people are celebrating it and turning it into popular culture, which is NOT a good thing. fighting, alcoholism, meth, hating the government, etc.

So instead of Obama coming out and saying, "Culture is responsible for these perceptions" he says, "I'm black, Trayvon Martin is black. Therefore I am Trayvon Martin."

Fuck that logic, Mr President you should be better then that.
Very well said. Even kids who are not poor, like Trayvon, are affected by the popular culture and our glorification of thuggery. As you say, poverty is not only excused but actively celebrated.

We need straight-shooting leaders who will say "You know what? Poverty sucks, and here's how to get out of it. It'll be hard work, but when you're out of poverty you'll be glad you put in the effort and your kids won't have to."