Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
86
So how does such a strong disconnect occur between the facts of the case and what the perception in the populous is? How does that disconnect come about and persist to the degree we see? I go back to my links above on this question. I think the disconnect was no accident, rather it was engineered with tax payer funding through government interventionism on the case and it was done from very early on, not merely during trial or post verdict.

I will tell you exactly how this happens:

Back in the day, we had a social understanding of what was right and wrong. People didn't have to temper actively telling some Bleeding Heart or scam artist to STFU and go home, and society backed that action in various ways...direct support, shunning of the idiot, etc. We have got away from that as a society. Now it's socially preferable to coddle Bleeding Hearts, to not challenge scam artists like Crump, etc. We've become so PC, so worried about making sure the tail wags the dog because we don't want to listen to the tail whine about not being able to do so, that the tail has become the dog. Idiocy has won, we're past that critical indoctrination point.

When you have large numbers of educated white people calling for 'Justice for Trayvon', advocating that GZ is a murderer, cying tears of blood about 'how can a young boy be dead and no one held responsible', etc, we as the former morally straight society are past F'd. If the educated white people are that F'd up, how mind F'd do you think the kids of these delusionals are? How F'd up do you think the already raised from birth delusional poorer black masses are, and how reinforced will their kids be? For all the technological progress (and everything it brings) we've made over the past 50 years, we've devolved in many ways as a society.

Enjoy these 'good times', they won't be coming back anytime soon...

Chuck
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
Here's a pretty amazing video of Congressman Bobby Rush (remember him? he was the guy who put on a hoodie on the floor of congress and got disciplined for it if I recall correctly) on Hannity with another congressman, and they're "debating" the case and whether Trayvon was profiled.

I find it fairly amazing that this man is a congressman, when he seems to have no ability to argue a point or make any sort of coherent statement at all.

Near as I can tell, his argument is "well we know that Trayvon was profiled for his hoodie and for his race because he was black and he was wearing a hoodie" - when he's asked for any evidence which would indicate that (vs. Trayvon having been found suspicious due to his *behavior* and way of carrying himself) he just sort of repeats himself.

This represents the attitude a lot of people have about this case. They work backward from the conclusion. Black kid was shot by non-black person, automatically declared racist murder with a side of profiling, and then we'll worry about establishing that via the evidence later...

Anyway, it really is a pretty remarkable video if you can make it through it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osm99X8OONA

Congressman Bobby Rush said:
Trayvon Martin was not a criminal.

http://spectator.org/blog/2013/07/15/trayvon-crime-school-miami

The February 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martion might never have happened if school officials in Miami-Dade County had not instituted an unofficial policy of treating crimes as school disciplinary infractions. Revelations that emerged from an internal affairs investigation explain why Martin was not arrested when caught at school with stolen jewelry in October 2011 or with marijuana in February 2012. Instead, the teenager was suspended from school, the last time just days before he was shot dead by George Zimmerman.

Trayvon Martin was not from Sanford, the town north of Orlando where he was shot in 2012 and where a jury acquitted Zimmerman of murder charges Saturday. Martin was from Miami Gardens, more than 200 miles away, and had come to Sanford to stay with his father’s girlfriend Brandy Green at her home in the townhouse community where Zimmerman was in charge of the neighborhood watch. Trayvon was staying with Green after he had been suspended for the second time in six months from Krop High School in Miami-Dade County, where both his father, Tracy Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, lived.

Both of Trayvon’s suspensions during his junior year at Krop High involved crimes that could have led to his prosecution as a juvenile offender. However, Chief Charles Hurley of the Miami-Dade School Police Department (MDSPD) in 2010 had implemented a policy that reduced the number of criiminal reports, manipulating statistics to create the appearance of a reduction in crime within the school system. Less than two weeks before Martin’s death, the school system commended Chief Hurley for “decreasing school-related juvenile delinquency by an impressive 60 percent for the last six months of 2011.” What was actually happening was that crimes were not being reported as crimes, but instead treated as disciplinary infractions.

In October 2011, after a video surveillance camera caught Martin writing graffiti on a door, MDSPD Office Darryl Dunn searched Martin’s backpack, looking for the marker he had used. Officer Dunn found 12 pieces of women’s jewelry and a man’s watch, along with a flathead screwdriver the officer described as a “burglary tool.” The jewelry and watch, which Martin claimed he had gotten from a friend he refused to name, matched a description of items stolen during the October 2011 burglary of a house on 204th Terrace, about a half-mile from the school. However, because of Chief Hurley’s policy “to lower the arrest rates,” as one MDSPD sergeant said in an internal investigation, the stolen jewerly was instead listed as “found property” and was never reported to Miami-Dade Police who were investigating the burglary. Similarly, in February 2012 when an MDSPD officer caught Martin with a small plastic bag containing marijuana residue, as well as a marijuana pipe, this was not treated as a crime, and instead Martin was suspended from school.

Either of those incidents could have put Trayvon Martin into the custody of the juvenile justice system. However, because of Chief Hurley’s attempt to reduce the school crime statistics — according to sworn testimony, officers were “basically told to lie and falsify” reports — Martin was never arrested. And if he had been arrested, he might never have been in Sanford the night of his fatal encounter with Zimmerman.

In fact, the reason Zimmerman was patrolling the townhouse community the night of the February 2012 shooting was that there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood, although there was no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any of those crimes.

As for Chief Hurley’s policy, it was the controversy over Martin’s death that accidentally exposed it. In March 2012, the Miami Herald reported on Martin’s troubled history of disciplinary incidents at Krop High. Chief Hurley then launched the internal affairs investigation in an attempt to find out who had provided information to the reporter. During the course of that investigation, MDSPD officers and supervisors described Chief Hurley’s policy of not reporting crimes by students. Chief Hurley was subsequently accused of sexually harassing two female subordinates. He resigned in February, about a year after Trayvon Martin’s death.

:colbert::colbert::colbert:

Congressman Bobby Rush said:
He was not a hoodlum. There's not even any accusations.
D: D: D:
 
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Nov 30, 2006
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I will tell you exactly how this happens:

Back in the day, we had a social understanding of what was right and wrong. People didn't have to temper actively telling some Bleeding Heart or scam artist to STFU and go home, and society backed that action in various ways...direct support, shunning of the idiot, etc. We have got away from that as a society. Now it's socially preferable to coddle Bleeding Hearts, to not challenge scam artists like Crump, etc. We've become so PC, so worried about making sure the tail wags the dog because we don't want to listen to the tail whine about not being able to do so, that the tail has become the dog. Idiocy has won, we're past that critical indoctrination point.

When you have large numbers of educated white people calling for 'Justice for Trayvon', advocating that GZ is a murderer, cying tears of blood about 'how can a young boy be dead and no one held responsible', etc, we as the former morally straight society are past F'd. If the educated white people are that F'd up, how mind F'd do you think the kids of these delusionals are? How F'd up do you think the already raised from birth delusional poorer black masses are, and how reinforced will their kids be? For all the technological progress (and everything it brings) we've made over the past 50 years, we've devolved in many ways as a society.

Enjoy these 'good times', they won't be coming back anytime soon...

Chuck
Well said. We have become a nation of idiots and I don't see this changing for quite some time.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
I will tell you exactly how this happens:

Back in the day, we had a social understanding of what was right and wrong. People didn't have to temper actively telling some Bleeding Heart or scam artist to STFU and go home, and society backed that action in various ways...direct support, shunning of the idiot, etc. We have got away from that as a society. Now it's socially preferable to coddle Bleeding Hearts, to not challenge scam artists like Crump, etc. We've become so PC, so worried about making sure the tail wags the dog because we don't want to listen to the tail whine about not being able to do so, that the tail has become the dog. Idiocy has won, we're past that critical indoctrination point.

When you have large numbers of educated white people calling for 'Justice for Trayvon', advocating that GZ is a murderer, cying tears of blood about 'how can a young boy be dead and no one held responsible', etc, we as the former morally straight society are past F'd. If the educated white people are that F'd up, how mind F'd do you think the kids of these delusionals are? How F'd up do you think the already raised from birth delusional poorer black masses are, and how reinforced will their kids be? For all the technological progress (and everything it brings) we've made over the past 50 years, we've devolved in many ways as a society.

Enjoy these 'good times', they won't be coming back anytime soon...

Chuck
case in point ichinisa 's quote about what bobby rush said right after your post. Too many people have taken the goal of not being racist to the point where they are no lover able to even criticize somebody of another race. It is a good example of cognitive dissonance.
This case is not even a complex one, which is why it has served as such a great tool to identify the race baiters and fools. It could serve as the basis for many discussions on the drawbacks of group think and propaganda.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
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Well said. We have become a nation of idiots and I don't see this changing for quite some time.

Nope, it will certainly not get better for a lone time, if ever. On race matters Whitey is so hopelessly wimpy and gun shy that rediculous BS happens simply to ensure the risk of offending another ethnicity is not chanced upon. Other ethnicities absolutely use this to their advantage.

case in point ichinisa 's quote about what bobby rush said right after your post. Too many people have taken the goal of not being racist to the point where they are no lover able to even criticize somebody of another race. It is a good example of cognitive dissonance.
This case is not even a complex one, which is why it has served as such a great tool to identify the race baiters and fools. It could serve as the basis for many discussions on the drawbacks of group think and propaganda.

Yes. I have a mental list of idiots on my FB page. My own cousin was astonished when I talked to her for a couple minutes while dropping something off at her parents that I could be a GZ supporter. She's liberal/progressive by nature already, but I get the sense that she's been getting her information on this particular case from her more in tune with current events lib/prog friends, so I can't tell if she is really in tune and it's just her nature, or, if she's just ignorant and taking the party line out of delusion. The end effect though is it's another GZ basher, another TM supporter, and support is lent to the TM and black delusion mentality crowd when in reality they're the ones that need their delusion bubble burst.

Oh well, I myself am in a good position long term. Other people I know...I feel really sorry for them and their kids/eventually grandkids. I really don't think they see how this end result they keep supporting is going to play out.

Chuck
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Obama just gave a speech about the case.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to hear any of it but the last bit, but I'm hearing them summarize it now.

Even more unfortunately, it seems he merely doubled down on "If I had a son..." narrative.

He didn't do the right thing and discuss the violence Trayvon did, or the importance of young folks not reacting with violence... and he didn't call off the DOJ dogs like he should have either.

It seemed like just another shot at white America and another infusion of white guilt.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Thoughts?

Much to do about nothing. In the long run it will not affect this case nor will it result in GZ being charged by the Feds for civil rights violations. All of this is a show to appease those who disagree with the verdict. The fact you have people like Bill Cosby, Charles Barkley, and Former President Carter speaking out in support of the verdict and against civil rights charges it's only a matter of time before this case meets it's end.

I take most of what's posted at the CTH with a grain of salt. I found their tactics as well as attacks on Mark O'Mara to be unwarranted and unproductive to the defense's case.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
86
Obama just gave a speech about the case.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to hear any of it but the last bit, but I'm hearing them summarize it now.

Even more unfortunately, it seems he merely doubled down on "If I had a son..." narrative.

He didn't do the right thing and discuss the violence Trayvon did, or the importance of young folks not reacting with violence... and he didn't call off the DOJ dogs like he should have either.

It seemed like just another shot at white America and another infusion of white guilt.

I appears that Obama just went full retard.

But BHO can afford to. He's got his 2nd 4 years, everyone else can kiss his @ss. What are people going to do, not vote for him next time?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Obama just gave a speech about the case.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to hear any of it but the last bit, but I'm hearing them summarize it now.

Even more unfortunately, it seems he merely doubled down on "If I had a son..." narrative.

He didn't do the right thing and discuss the violence Trayvon did, or the importance of young folks not reacting with violence... and he didn't call off the DOJ dogs like he should have either.

It seemed like just another shot at white America and another infusion of white guilt.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/19/us-usa-florida-shooting-obama-idUSBRE96I0XT20130719
"You know, when Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me, 35 years ago," Obama told reporters at the White House, in his first public remarks after the acquittal by a Florida court of Martin's shooter, George Zimmerman.

So is Obama saying that he did go around beating up creepy ass crackas' and got lucky none were armed, or that he could imagine himself doing so?
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Isn't it ironic that the public lynching (with DOJ stamp of approval on it) of a Hispanic, liberal, black-dating, black-mentoring, Obama-voting social justice warrior for black homeless men, registered democrat, man who was the biggest supporter his gay brother had when he came out... and man who pushed for the rest of his family to vote for Obama too...

... is being used as a basis to have a national conversation on racism, and try to repeal a law that wasn't involved in the case other than in the imaginations of gun grabbers?

... after this man was attacked by a racial-epithet spewing, violent, and hateful criminal?

Obama: "Thanks for your vote, George! Now hold still while I roll out all the power and credibility of the united states government to bring about your personal destruction!"
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,016
36
86
Isn't it ironic that the public lynching (with DOJ stamp of approval on it) of a Hispanic, liberal, black-dating, black-mentoring, Obama-voting social justice warrior for black homeless men, registered democrat, man who was the biggest supporter his gay brother had when he came out... and man who pushed for the rest of his family to vote for Obama too...

... is being used as a basis to have a national conversation on racism, and try to repeal a law that wasn't involved in the case other than in the imaginations of gun grabbers?

... after this man was attacked by a racial-epithet spewing, violent, and hateful criminal?

Obama: "Thanks for your vote, George! Now hold still while I roll out all the power and credibility of the united states government to bring about your personal destruction!"

:biggrin::thumbsup:
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,142
5,089
136
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/19/us-usa-florida-shooting-obama-idUSBRE96I0XT20130719


So is Obama saying that he did go around beating up creepy ass crackas' and got lucky none were armed, or that he could imagine himself doing so?

The President's speech is inciting violence. Either through rioting or by claiming that he'd be a violent drug ridden youth.


Key word...speech.
Full transcript of presidents remarks.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...33ebea-f09a-11e2-a1f9-ea873b7e0424_story.html
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
The President's speech is inciting violence. Either through rioting or by claiming that he'd be a violent drug ridden youth.

and everything that is wrong with blacks is still due to slavery. while he didn't say it outright thats what he alluded to.

he also did not condemn what TM did but made excuses for the behavior. Then pretty much put a stamp of approval on it with "that could have been me 35 years ago"


Isn't it ironic that the public lynching (with DOJ stamp of approval on it) of a Hispanic, liberal, black-dating, black-mentoring, Obama-voting social justice warrior for black homeless men, registered democrat, man who was the biggest supporter his gay brother had when he came out... and man who pushed for the rest of his family to vote for Obama too...

... is being used as a basis to have a national conversation on racism, and try to repeal a law that wasn't involved in the case other than in the imaginations of gun grabbers?

... after this man was attacked by a racial-epithet spewing, violent, and hateful criminal?

Obama: "Thanks for your vote, George! Now hold still while I roll out all the power and credibility of the united states government to bring about your personal destruction!"



exactly.

what does he care? that the Dems don't get elected again? that a black man won't get elected again?
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Bobby Rush said:
He was not a hoodlum. There's not even any accusations.

:colbert::colbert::colbert:


D: D: D:

Actually, there is an accusation.

From Trayvon's own phone:

bU4sFOp.png
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,067
8,085
136

There's the forked tongue approach I was waiting for. He sugar coated it with this:

Now, the question for me at least, and I think, for a lot of folks is, where do we take this? How do we learn some lessons from this and move in a positive direction? You know, I think it’s understandable that there have been demonstrations and vigils and protests, and some of that stuff is just going to have to work its way through as long as it remains nonviolent. If I see any violence, then I will remind folks that that dishonors what happened to Trayvon Martin and his family.
Claiming that the violent drug ridden youth would be himself, 35 years ago, but also adding the caveat.

You can't fan the flames and pretend to be fire fighting.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
I know that I'm a lily white, heterosexual, tall, first world MALE and therefore my insights into anything related to oppression or discrimination or profiling or the hardships faced by anyone from a less historically empowered/endorsed group/gender/sexuality/height/race...

but I am going to risk saying something anyway...

Since my president just went into a lot of detail discussing what it's like for black men to see people clutch their purses, or lock their car doors, or to follow them around department stores...

I feel I simply must weigh in on this.

First off, let me be clear... I do understand that black males get more attention, suspicion, and glances than other race/gender combinations do. I know that, I'm not denying that.

What I am saying, is that I think the degree to which this is the case is massively exaggerated and over-estimated by the people who endure it, and by the people who tend to comment on it with sympathy.

As a *very* white male I have had an eye kept on me in stores, I have felt glances, I have seen women in isolated places especially at night tense up if I'm a stranger to them and there's nobody else around...

I'm not sure I've ever noticed/heard someone lock their car doors as I approached, but I can say this... I have locked my car doors in situations where ANYONE was getting close to my car. Without even looking to see who it was. Just peripheral vision of someone approaching, it's an instinctive thing. I've definitely done it consciously because of shady looking white guys.

I just think the people who are so invested in being perpetual victims may be underestimating how much of what's going on is down to being male and being tall. But again, I acknowledge that being black is another big factor too. Just maybe not as big as it's made out to be.

What can be said? Life isn't fair, biology doesn't care.

Males have to come to grips as they become men with being viewed differently, being mistrusted...

Women have to exercise more caution and give more thought to where they're at at night and where they're at alone...

I had the privilege of walking around at 3am alone when I was younger, and I missed out on the privilege women have of not being viewed as a threat. We all have our lot in life.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
Wow. While the President has 1st ammendment rights like the next person the Presidential Podium isn't a place to exercise opinion. His job is to uphold the laws and rules of the land. I am appauled he continues to offer a slanted view of this case--specifically where are the words about the right to self defense, that he "could have been a home owner on a watch," etc? How about chastizing the Holder and the DOJ for defying a jury's unanimous verdict of "not guilty" by saying the shooting was unecessary?

The other day I wrote a Q&A for someone looking at what would have been the legal recourse if Martin was NOT shot. When looking at it from that perspective I think it is palpably obvious the jury was correct.

Q: Assume the same series of events with one exception: Martin was never shot by Zimmerman. In this scenario just prior to pulling his firearm Zimmerman heard the police, no longer feared the next punch could knock him unconscious and he be left unprotected, and the police instead arrived moments later. Assuming all the same evidence as presented in this case what would have happened if Zimmerman had not shot Martin?

A: The police would have arrested Martin and charges of assault and battery would have been filed.

Martin’s “best case” scenario presented by the State was Martin could contest he was in a legal place (his community) doing nothing illegal when he was thrust into a compromised situation (a minor being followed by an armed stranger on a dark, rainy night) when he was accosted aggressively by Zimmerman. Even if Martin told the police Zimmerman verbally threatened him (there are no witnesses or evidence of such) the above scenario would not protect Martin from charges as the material evidence is substantial. Zimmerman contradicts Martin and claims Martin was the aggressor and assaulted him (again, there is no evidence of who started the fight) but significantly Martin had no signs of injuries, Zimmerman had multiple facial injuries, and there is a witness to Martin mounting Zimmerman. And in this scenario the police arrived when the two parties in the position of the shooting: Martin on top of Zimmerman (as shown by the forensic evidence).

In this scenario Martin’s motives and actions can be called into question and challenged. The police would have also asked some pressing questions: Why did Martin not run home if he was so afraid? He had a right to be where he was but if he was afraid enough to motivate a physical altercation why did he not run home? Martin was obviously much faster than Zimmerman. The police would have also asked: If you were afraid of Zimmerman, why did you continue to talk on the phone to friends instead of calling 911? In this scenario Martin had multiple avenues to avert the physical confrontation. Some evidence indicates that Martin may have even turned back to confront Zimmerman instead of seeking a safe ground (which nullifies a self-defense claim).

The next issue is the nature of Martin’s self-defense claim. Many have suggested Martin acted in legal self-defense. But as this case highlights, even though no physical harm had to occur, there had to remain a reasonable fear of imminent death or significant bodily harm and the individual would have had to retreat as much as possible. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that Zimmerman posed a reasonable threat that a normal person would fear for their life or fear great bodily harm. Following someone and keeping an eye on them until LEO arrives is not a crime--Zimmerman had every right to do this. (Martin's guardians should have alerted him to the presence of the local watch.)

Further, as outlined in this case, someone claiming self-defense must retreat. The State’s presentation, at best, fails to show Martin had no reasonable means of retreat. Even if a claim of Stand Your Ground was presented there remains no evidence Zimmerman presented a threat or that Martin stood his ground and warned Zimmerman prior to the physical contact (we are back to the “there is no evidence”—so even if this happened Martin would be in the same boat as Zimmerman.) Unlike Zimmerman who claims he cried for help and had injuries consistent with assault plus a witness to the assault Martin has no evidence he took the legal steps to claim SYG or self-defense.

And this is a best case scenario of claiming self-defense.

If Martin was afraid why did he not flee after knocking Zimmerman to the ground? Why did he not get off and flee when Zimmerman cried repeatedly for help? The last two points are contested as, again, there is no direct evidence Martin knocked Zimmerman down first or that it was Zimmerman, not Martin, screaming for help. But if the police arrived and no shooting occurred undoubtedly, considering Martin mounting Zimmerman and the fact Zimmerman was injured and Martin was not, there is incontrovertible evidence that Martin was assaulting Zimmerman and no evidence that Zimmerman had harmed Martin.

If the tragic shooting had not occurred Martin’s history would have become evidence: his phone, his Facebook, his Twitter, his school records and expulsion, etc. Specifically his history of fighting, brandishing stolen weapons, illegal drug use, and possible stolen goods. In this context Martin’s racial comments to Ms. Jenteal and her belief this was (paraphrase), “Just another fight” bode very poorly to corroborate Martin’s case. In fact the racial slur toward Zimmerman could be grounds for a civil rights violation against Zimmerman (would the FBI and DOJ be called in?)

In Florida Martin would not need to prove self-defense. Martin would only have to cast reasonable doubt on Zimmerman’s claim that Martin assaulted him. The problem is, if the tables were flipped, Martin (unlike Zimmerman) has no signs of injuries. Further, there is no evidence that Martin could not retreat. Martin, unlike Zimmerman, did not notify the police of suspicious activity. There are no witnesses Martin warned Zimmerman before SYG. And unless Zimmerman presented his firearm (no evidence of such until the shooting) there is no founding to self-defense based on a citizen exercising a valid conceal and carry. Martin could present all the same talking points as the State, but with the same material evidence none of it rises to the level of, “Reasonable doubt.” There is no way around the fact Martin had many attempts to retreat (Martin had this responsibility) and Martin had ample opportunity to contact Law Enforcement. If Martin had not been shot, with the limited witnesses and evidence, there is an extremely strong case Martin assaulted Zimmerman.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Looks like Obama doubles down on retard. This guy is going to make Bush's blowing of political capital on Terry Schiavo look intelligent.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Obama's comments today on the case only serve to further separate this country.

Is it a sin to make the remark that Martin was beating the snot out of Zimmerman?

Every black person wants to tell their recap of the story, tell of their own personal stories, view Martin as if he were an immediate family member, but nearly every time whomever is speaking completely omits the part of the story of Martin beating the snot out of Zimmerman.