Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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Yes, we neewd to keep the lynch mob riled up because you want gun control. We get it, that's why I won't be voting Democrat this year.

lol@u

I am all for the right to own guns, just not chase down potentially armed people who may be on drugs.

I am not for lynch mobs but its obvious this was an avoidable tragedy for all involved, I do hope the outrage turns to action and laws that allow the above are repealed.

Vote how you want
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
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Yeah I'll take a different approach and do what I can to ensure the law does not allow Private Citizens to pursure potentially armed people on drugs.

Thats what law enforment is for.

Screw that. Imagine if your kid just got kidnapped and someone saw the incident and is now following them to keep police informed of where the kidnapper was traveling. I don't want that person pursuing the kidnapper to stop "because it might lead to a travesty" because you are all butt-hurt about private citizens looking out for other private citizens.

It is NOT only the job of duly appointed law enforcement officials to uphold the law. It is the job of every single law abiding citizen. You do not just pass the buck on this one.

I agree that a private citizen should not be taking actions that would directly lead to the endangerment of themselves or others. Following a possible criminal or suspect is not an action that would normally lead to endangerment though. Otherwise what would be the point to any neighborhood watch?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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And even if he wasn't armed how do you know he wouldn't have tried to follow him just the same?

Because if a fight broke out he doesnt have the ability to end it or at least not the virtual guarantee the firearm provides. Too much risk. The gun and the STG law gave him the confidence to play cop w/o the badge or the authority to have martin respect it. For all martin knew this guy was some freak who was going to lock him in his basement Pulp Fiction syle way we warn children all the time about strangers.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
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Yeah I'll take a different approach and do what I can to ensure the law does not allow Private Citizens to pursure potentially armed people on drugs.

Thats what law enforment is for.

Just hope no one breaks ionto your house and kills you while your waiting for the police. I for one am not leaving my personal protection up to when the police can arrive on the scene.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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But what really started it, was the illegal/criminal activity. That would be the vicious assault/battery committed by Martin. If you get down to the root cause, the root cause MUST be criminal by nature. And the only crime committed is the attack by Martin.

It is not illegal for one to get out of their car and keep tabs on a suspicious person.

It does appear Martin has fault in his own death, but id prefer trained law enforment professionals handle these situations vs armed private citizens.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
Because if a fight broke out he doesnt have the ability to end it or at least not the virtual guarantee the firearm provides. Too much risk. The gun and the STG law gave him the confidence to play cop w/o the badge or the authority to have martin respect it. For all martin knew this guy was some freak who was going to lock him in his basement Pulp Fiction syle way we warn children all the time about strangers.
So basically you're talking out your ass...got it.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
lol@u

I am all for the right to own guns, just not chase down potentially armed people who may be on drugs.

I am not for lynch mobs but its obvious this was an avoidable tragedy for all involved, I do hope the outrage turns to action and laws that allow the above are repealed.

Vote how you want

lol@u2

If we want to stop "avoidable tragedies" we will have to pass a lot of laws. How many people are killed everyday because of cellphones? We better legislate their use, etc., etc.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Just hope no one breaks ionto your house and kills you while your waiting for the police. I for one am not leaving my personal protection up to when the police can arrive on the scene.

The two situations are nowhere near comparable. Zimmerman was only in danger after he pursued Martin, had the law not allowed that pursuit he would have been in no danger.

Someone breaking into your house is very different than walking down the street. If you cant tell the difference you are part of the problem.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
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Because if a fight broke out he doesnt have the ability to end it or at least not the virtual guarantee the firearm provides. Too much risk. The gun and the STG law gave him the confidence to play cop w/o the badge or the authority to have martin respect it. For all martin knew this guy was some freak who was going to lock him in his basement Pulp Fiction syle way we warn children all the time about strangers.

Useless and baseless speculation. Stick to the facts. Zimmerman saw a suspicious person and decided to follow. If he was intent on capturing TM and "locking him in his basement" I doubt he would have called the cops like he did. That's just fear mongering you are using there.

He called the cops and the cops told him to desist. By his own accounts he did desist in pursuit. He stated he stopped pursuing once he lost sight of him while on the phone. Then got out to look at the street sign to verify which street he was on to give that information to the police as to where he last saw TM. At which point TM approached him and instigated an altercation.

If that story is correct then this isn't a case of a "gun nut with a hardon to be a cop." He wasn't chasing TM for long and didn't do a damn thing to incur the assault by TM. Nor did the "laws" fail to prevent the death of TM. If the event occurred as described by TM then the death of TM was the fault from his own hands in the end by attacking an armed individual.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
lol@u2

If we want to stop "avoidable tragedies" we will have to pass a lot of laws. How many people are killed everyday because of cellphones? We better legislate their use, etc., etc.

Ok let me help you and clarify.

avoidable gun violence.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
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How would it be avoidable if the incident that happened was as GZ described? That TM came from behind him, initiated contact, and then threw a sucker punch? In no way does SYG get legal justification to anyone looking to "pick a fight" in which they can justify shooting the person by provoking an attack by the person they which to shoot. To think that SYG defends that course of action is asinine.

I think it's legit if it's as Zimmerman describes it. But I believe a jury should decide if he's believable not the cops. We already heard Z was getting a beat down from a police leaks but that does not mean it was initiated as Z describes it. STG cuts both ways.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
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To be honest this design predates the shooting.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Lotus,

If the event played out according the Zimmerman's account of the incident, the only "avoidable" action that could have been done was in the hands of TM. Which was not to approach GZ, or attack him. The more articles I read, and evidence I've seen leads credence to that GZ did in fact stop pursuit at the request of the 911 dispatcher. Still that is based on what has been leaked to the media.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Blah, basically this is all about the backlash.

I too felt lied to when you see that there were updated photos and he had a marijuana charge and some graffiti.

But it really doesn't change anything. Lots of people get busted for pot. It has nothing to do with this case.

Now, if he had injured someone in the past, case closed.

But no, he didn't do anything worse than any teenager across the country.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Useless and baseless speculation. Stick to the facts. Zimmerman saw a suspicious person and decided to follow. If he was intent on capturing TM and "locking him in his basement" I doubt he would have called the cops like he did. That's just fear mongering you are using there.

He called the cops and the cops told him to desist. By his own accounts he did desist in pursuit. He stated he stopped pursuing once he lost sight of him while on the phone. Then got out to look at the street sign to verify which street he was on to give that information to the police as to where he last saw TM. At which point TM approached him and instigated an altercation.

If that story is correct then this isn't a case of a "gun nut with a hardon to be a cop." He wasn't chasing TM for long and didn't do a damn thing to incur the assault by TM. Nor did the "laws" fail to prevent the death of TM. If the event occurred as described by TM then the death of TM was the fault from his own hands in the end by attacking an armed individual.

TM doesnt know he was talking to police, he could have been talking to Zed and feared for his life.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Lotus,

If the event played out according the Zimmerman's account of the incident, the only "avoidable" action that could have been done was in the hands of TM. Which was not to approach GZ, or attack him. The more articles I read, and evidence I've seen leads credence to that GZ did in fact stop pursuit at the request of the 911 dispatcher. Still that is based on what has been leaked to the media.

I don't believe Zimmerman's account.

And THERE IS NO PROOF OF ZIMMERMAN'S ACCOUNT ON WHO THREW THE FIRST PUNCH.

There needs to be a trial.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
The two situations are nowhere near comparable. Zimmerman was only in danger after he pursued Martin, had the law not allowed that pursuit he would have been in no danger.

Someone breaking into your house is very different than walking down the street. If you cant tell the difference you are part of the problem.
No he was in no danger until T came up behind him and started throwing punches...at least that's the facts as we know them now.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
TM doesnt know he was talking to police, he could have been talking to Zed and feared for his life.
Then he wouldn't have approached Z and started the altercation now would he? THAT wouldn't make a lick of sense...and yet he did according to the GF
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Accepted practice of a Neighborhood Watch is is being discussed here, not your deflection.

It was his personal self defense and it applied more than ever. If you have even the most basic understanding of liabilty, then you know why they could NEVER EVER recommend that he have a gun no matter how needed it may be., It's exactly why the 911 operator said they "didn't need" him to follow. You do not lose your rights because someone else disavowed themselves of liability. Now do you understand why it is integral and, thus, they be discussed together instead of dismissed as a deflection?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I think it's legit if it's as Zimmerman describes it. But I believe a jury should decide if he's believable not the cops. We already heard Z was getting a beat down from a police leaks but that does not mean it was initiated as Z describes it. STG cuts both ways.

Very true. I stated earlier that if GZ was the one to pursue, corner, and initiate contact in a manner that TM felt threatened then the fault of this all lies on GZ. It would be murder and not self defense even if he was getting his ass handed to him in a fight.

The problem is not with the laws at all. They are fine. The problem is we as the public have not been informed of all the evidence and are being led by the nose by this media farce/debacle.

I am a firm believer of innocent until proven guilty. This shit should not be on the news in this manner or reaching this level of national attention until the case has played out.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
It was his personal self defense and it applied more than ever. If you have even the most basic understanding of liabilty, then you know why they could NEVER EVER recommend that he have a gun no matter how needed it may be., It's exactly why the 911 operator said they "didn't need" him to follow. You do not lose your rights because someone else disavowed themselves of liability. Now do you understand why it is integral and, thus, they be discussed together instead of dismissed as a deflection?
You said it better than I did...they say those things to get out of being liable in case shit goes bad, not because there's any legal or moral reason not to