Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I don't dispute that sworn testimony is evidence.

But other than that sworn testimony there is no evidence.

One has to weight said evidence Spidey appears to think because Zimmerman said he was walking back its proof, its not proof its sworn testimony.

Whats also Evidence is the fact the guy outlines a threat to police and he pursues that threat ending in the death of minor.

Which is not a crime. The only illegal behavior is the vicious attack by Martin.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Police and DA say they don't have evidence of manslaughter, otherwise they'd make an arrest.

Are you even paying attention to this story?

I'm beginning to realize that some of us discussing this story are letting the evidence that trickles out guide our conclusions, and others are completely being swept off by emotion.

To them, you simply can say or show nothing to dislodge them from their first impression "young boy killed for no reason by fat racist gun nut" and that's that. Nothing forthcoming is going to change that view.

My proof that the evidence guides my conclusions, btw, is that I started out on COMPLETELY the other side when this story first broke, and for a good while after. I was not yet on this forum at that time, but I have come a long way, and it's all been because of evidence. It started out as little doubts, and at this point I grow increasingly confident that Z's version of events is probably pretty close to the truth.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
LMAO!! Keep em coming lotus503.

Do you honestly think that the SPD and state's attorneys haven't looked at every possible violation of the law? They must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't self defense and have probable cause that a crime has been committed based on evidence and/or testimony.

I think they are in the process of evaluating and that they are not done.

I don't think in order for Z to be found liable in the death they have to prove it wasnt self defense. I think they have to prove that Zimmerman's action were reckless and it ended in the need to shoot.


"Criminally negligent manslaughter
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness."
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Which is not a crime. The only illegal behavior is the vicious attack by Martin.

I disagree there is no crime


"Criminally negligent manslaughter
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness.
"
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
If given, and not able to be proven different, then he's not negligent at all, let alone reckless. Burden of proof is showing that he did not heed the advise and did not go back to his truck or had any intention of doing so.

His own 911 call doesn't corroborate his own testimony but I do concede that a minute went by after he hung up with 911 that there is no accounting for before the conflict and shooting occurred. The call ends with him telling dispatch not to have them meet him at his parked truck by the clubhouse mailboxes... but to call his cell phone and he'd tell the officers his location. Someone walking back to their truck the dispatcher told them to meet up with cops at doesn't end the call like that imo.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
The EVIDENCE shows he was no where near his truck and his DIRECTION of walking is not witnessed by ANYONE. Stop making shit up.


The evidence he speaks of is Zimmermans sworn statement he was walking back.

I think Spidey would say based on the Law OJ didnt kill nicole either.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I'm beginning to realize that some of us discussing this story are letting the evidence that trickles out guide our conclusions, and others are completely being swept off by emotion.

To them, you simply can say or show nothing to dislodge them from their first impression "young boy killed for no reason by fat racist gun nut" and that's that. Nothing forthcoming is going to change that view.

My proof that the evidence guides my conclusions, btw, is that I started out on COMPLETELY the other side when this story first broke, and for a good while after. I was not yet on this forum at that time, but I have come a long way, and it's all been because of evidence. It started out as little doubts, and at this point I grow increasingly confident that Z's version of events is probably pretty close to the truth.

I strongly believe we could have a video of the entire encounter - the attack by martin, the bashing of the head into the ground, the shoot in self defense...and there would still be a large portion of emotional cries to hang zimmerman because...get this...even WITH that video as proof...

But he got out of the car and didn't follow orders from 911!!!!!

That much is apparent, and you can see it happening in this thread.
 

Puddle Jumper

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,835
1
0
I think they are in the process of evaluating and that they are not done.

I don't think in order for Z to be found liable in the death they have to prove it wasnt self defense. I think they have to prove that Zimmerman's action were reckless and it ended in the need to shoot.


"Criminally negligent manslaughter
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness."

You don't get it, all of the definitions you keep posting are worthless since Florida law does not allow him to be charged in a case of self defense. What you think is incorrect, the law clearly states the opposite.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Lotus,

You are incorrect about the law. Completely and totally wrong. In order to prove negligence or recklessness, they have to prove he was going against the commands given to him and set out to confront TM. His statement that he decided to walk back and did not go after TM after thinking about it is proof to his innocence of negligence/recklessness. It is up to the prosecutor to find evidence that counters that claim. If no evidence can be found then that testimony, despite being given by GZ himself, will stand as evidence. At which point neither negligence or recklessness can be charged to GZ. End of discussion. There is either counter evidence to GZ's claim or there is not.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
I'm beginning to realize that some of us discussing this story are letting the evidence that trickles out guide our conclusions, and others are completely being swept off by emotion.

To them, you simply can say or show nothing to dislodge them from their first impression "young boy killed for no reason by fat racist gun nut" and that's that. Nothing forthcoming is going to change that view.

My proof that the evidence guides my conclusions, btw, is that I started out on COMPLETELY the other side when this story first broke, and for a good while after. I was not yet on this forum at that time, but I have come a long way, and it's all been because of evidence. It started out as little doubts, and at this point I grow increasingly confident that Z's version of events is probably pretty close to the truth.

Signed up here to post in this thread, was on the other side of the fence but have now seen the light, and agreeing with spidey... sounds good. If you've convinced yourself you've convinced me.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
I strongly believe we could have a video of the entire encounter - the attack by martin, the bashing of the head into the ground, the shoot in self defense...and there would still be a large portion of emotional cries to hang zimmerman because...get this...even WITH that video as proof...

But he got out of the car and didn't follow orders from 911!!!!!

That much is apparent, and you can see it happening in this thread.


I dont want to hang Zimmerman but I do think his actions contributed to the death of Martin, I also think Martin's actions may have contributed to his own death as well, other than Zimmermans account we only know from witness testimony that Martin was on top beating him up at some point.

Thats the thing when you kill the other party, we dont get to hear his side of it and take his testimony into account.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
So you'd say that Martin's actions were completely unprovoked? That would be one of the arguments for self-defense.

If you're followed for 7+ minutes, and then trailed on foot. The face to face might be very tense, and reaching for a cell phone that was just in your hands seconds before, could have left a reasonable person thinking Zimmerman was reaching for a gun.

If what we're hearing now of Z's testimony is accurate to what he said, I think the fact that he admitted to reaching for his cell phone directly before he was attacked is a strong indication that he wasn't lying, because that admission could be seen as a possible reason for M's reaction, as you just implied.

HOWEVER, to me I get the impression based on how he recounts it, that asking "you got a problem?" on M's part was just a formality so he could follow up with the line of "well you do now!" and the physical assault.

Being weirded out, intimidated, scared by an unknown person watching you and then following you IS understandable, but to a reasonable person when you finally meet them face to face or face to back, and YOU begin a conversation, however tense, with them, and they respond with "what are you doing here?" at that point it should be clear to you that they find you suspicious, and probably don't mean you any harm. They probably view you as a potential source of problems, and aren't one themselves, beyond the hassle level.

So reactions like taking off, or telling them to fuck off, or being highly indignant and expressing frustration/disgust with what you perceive as profiling, are all understandable. Though I'd say if you are the sort of person who deliberately and FORCEFULLY (gold teeth) embraces the thug aesthetic and lifestyle (stealing jewelry and punching bus drivers if that's shown to be true), then you can't be all that shocked when people perceive you in exactly that way.

Still, it's a free country and people have the right to dress and act thuggish if they choose. That alone is not grounds for being shot to death, of course. Nobody's saying it is. It is, however, pretty good grounds for being looked askance at, and questioned when visiting a gated community you don't live in.

But all the thug style and gangsta walking in the world don't amount to a justification for being shot.

Know what does? physical assault and bashing someone's head into the concrete. That is officially the point at which you've taken the thug thing too far. Personally I'd rather see someone who goes that far end up in the slammer that night, and turn their life around. Not dead. But here we are.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,314
9,170
136
I strongly believe we could have a video of the entire encounter - the attack by martin, the bashing of the head into the ground, the shoot in self defense...and there would still be a large portion of emotional cries to hang zimmerman because...get this...even WITH that video as proof...

But he got out of the car and didn't follow orders from 911!!!!!

That much is apparent, and you can see it happening in this thread.

Nope. You're the only one around these parts that is that clueless.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
If what we're hearing now of Z's testimony is accurate to what he said, I think the fact that he admitted to reaching for his cell phone directly before he was attacked is a strong indication that he wasn't lying, because that admission could be seen as a possible reason for M's reaction, as you just implied.

HOWEVER, to me I get the impression based on how he recounts it, that asking "you got a problem?" on M's part was just a formality so he could follow up with the line of "well you do now!" and the physical assault.

Being weirded out, intimidated, scared by an unknown person watching you and then following you IS understandable, but to a reasonable person when you finally meet them face to face or face to back, and YOU begin a conversation, however tense, with them, and they respond with "what are you doing here?" at that point it should be clear to you that they find you suspicious, and probably don't mean you any harm. They probably view you as a potential source of problems, and aren't one themselves, beyond the hassle level.

So reactions like taking off, or telling them to fuck off, or being highly indignant and expressing frustration/disgust with what you perceive as profiling, are all understandable. Though I'd say if you are the sort of person who deliberately and FORCEFULLY (gold teeth) embraces the thug aesthetic and lifestyle (stealing jewelry and punching bus drivers if that's shown to be true), then you can't be all that shocked when people perceive you in exactly that way.

Still, it's a free country and people have the right to dress and act thuggish if they choose. That alone is not grounds for being shot to death, of course. Nobody's saying it is. It is, however, pretty good grounds for being looked askance at, and questioned when visiting a gated community you don't live in.

But all the thug style and gangsta walking in the world don't amount to a justification for being shot.

Know what does? physical assault and bashing someone's head into the concrete. That is officially the point at which you've taken the thug thing too far. Personally I'd rather see someone who goes that far end up in the slammer that night, and turn their life around. Not dead. But here we are.



He is in a gated community. Some people are acting like trayvon was in the hood being stalked. He had no reason to be in fear of anything whatsoever.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Thats the thing when you kill the other party, we dont get to hear his side of it and take his testimony into account.

Which is why eye witness testimony and forensic evidence has to be used instead. Without those, there is never a case. That's how our legal system works. Welcome to American where we don't hang people based on the hearsay of others. Well at least not as much anymore. There was a time though when mob rule was the rule and that was a bad time.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,938
3,231
146
Lesson here is don't live in florida, don't live in a gated community and definitely don't let fat retards run your neighborhood watch.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
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I dont want to hang Zimmerman but I do think his actions contributed to the death of Martin, I also think Martin's actions may have contributed to his own death as well, other than Zimmermans account we only know from witness testimony that Martin was on top beating him up at some point.

Thats the thing when you kill the other party, we dont get to hear his side of it and take his testimony into account.


Next time should zimmerman just let trayvon finish beating him to death?
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Which is why eye witness testimony and forensic evidence has to be used instead. Without those, there is never a case. That's how our legal system works. Welcome to American where we don't hang people based on the hearsay of others.


I agree completely, and my opinion doesnt stem from the shooting in as much what led to the shooting and was there negiligece that led to it.

I find pursuing someone with a loaded 9mm when you think they may be on drugs and armed, reckless. I think if Zimmerman is charged it will be with a variant of below

"Criminally negligent manslaughter
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness."
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
I dont want to hang Zimmerman but I do think his actions contributed to the death of Martin, I also think Martin's actions may have contributed to his own death as well, other than Zimmermans account we only know from witness testimony that Martin was on top beating him up at some point.

Thats the thing when you kill the other party, we dont get to hear his side of it and take his testimony into account.

Nobody disagrees that if Zimmerman stayed in his car and listened to the 911 officer they both would be alive right now. The people who are defending Zimmerman also aren't defending his actions based on whether or not what he did was a good or bad idea, just how they hold up against Florida law.
 

Puddle Jumper

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,835
1
0
I agree completely, and my opinion doesnt stem from the shooting in as much what led to the shooting and was there negiligece that led to it.

I find pursuing someone with a loaded 9mm when you think they may be on drugs and armed, reckless. I think if Zimmerman is charged it will be with a variant of below

"Criminally negligent manslaughter
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness."

People have already explained why that is wrong numerous times now.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I agree completely, and my opinion doesnt stem from the shooting in as much what led to the shooting and was there negiligece that led to it.

I find pursuing someone with a loaded 9mm when you think they may be on drugs and armed, reckless. I think if Zimmerman is charged it will be with a variant of below

If in fact he continued pursuit after being told not to continue the pursuit. The only evidence so far shown is his testimony that he stopped pursuit. Unless other evidence, such as eye witness testimony or forensic evidence shows otherwise, then they can't even charge him with negligence at all. Hence my original statement still stands.

And your desire to charge him for "something" because you think he may be lying has no baring at all in this case. I'm not saying he isn't lying, but unless there is proof contrary to that, it is all the law has to go on.

Also, that whole charge only works in states other than Florida. Again with Florida, negligence and recklessness can not be charged AT ALL if the claimant can claim a legal justification for someone dying. In this case the legal claim is self defense. Without being able to thwart that claim first in Florida, no other charge can be made against him.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
Signed up here to post in this thread, was on the other side of the fence but have now seen the light, and agreeing with spidey... sounds good. If you've convinced yourself you've convinced me.

Not sure what you're implying, do you think I'm like, a real life friend of spidey called in as backup? An alternate persona of him? Or something else entirely?

I'm just fascinated by this story, I was also fascinated by the Casey Anthony case, and followed that very closely for a long period of time. I even listened to all of the depositions, every full day of trial (if it could be had online, and it usually could) all the local news reports, every police interview, etc.

I guess I'm a bit of a crime hound or something? I wasn't until a couple of years ago. I just find these legal ins and outs to be fascinating.

I'm even more fascinated by this story because I can't think of another time where my position on something flipped completely from one end to the other.

I'm sorry if you feel that this story wasn't sufficient justification to act as the catalyst for me registering here, but something had to right? and I'd think that the longest thread in the forum's history could be forgiven for acting as such a catalyst for a few people, no?

I don't know spidey's history like you do, but I'll concede that by looking at his posts here, I do get the impression of a possible racist streak or something, I'm not sure. What I will say though, is that regardless of that, for the most part what he says on THIS ISSUE is solid. I've seen people with worldviews I fundamentally disagree with still make very insightful appraisals of other matters, etc. It's not unheard of.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Nobody disagrees that if Zimmerman stayed in his car and listened to the 911 officer they both would be alive right now. The people who are defending Zimmerman also aren't defending his actions based on whether or not what he did was a good or bad idea, just how they hold up against Florida law.

No. Zimmerman didn't do anything illegal in a place he was lawfully allowed to be. Keeping an eye on somebody isn't illegal and is quite in line with what a neighborhood watch guy would do when he saw a suspicious person.

Good idea/bad idea? That's hindsight.

Good idea or bad idea of Martin to viciously attack zimmerman? Looks like that was a bad idea. Don't want to get shot? Don't viciously attack somebody. REALLY don't want to get shot? Don't then put them on the ground, defenseless, and beat them about the head as they cry for help.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Lotus,

You are incorrect about the law. Completely and totally wrong. In order to prove negligence or recklessness, they have to prove he was going against the commands given to him and set out to confront TM. His statement that he decided to walk back and did not go after TM after thinking about it is proof to his innocence of negligence/recklessness. It is up to the prosecutor to find evidence that counters that claim. If no evidence can be found then that testimony, despite being given by GZ himself, will stand as evidence. At which point neither negligence or recklessness can be charged to GZ. End of discussion. There is either counter evidence to GZ's claim or there is not.

"going against the commands given to him and set out to confront TM"

This is where I hope the grand jury puts its focus in weighing evidence.

We know if he doesnt follow or get out of his his car with his loaded 9mm, the eventual confrontation doest take place. Was it reckless for him to pursue? given he thought martin was on drugs and potentially armed?

We will find out.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
If in fact he continued pursuit after being told not to continue the pursuit. The only evidence so far shown is his testimony that he stopped pursuit. Unless other evidence, such as eye witness testimony or forensic evidence shows otherwise, then they can't even charge him with negligence at all. Hence my original statement still stands.

And your desire to charge him for "something" because you think he may be lying has no baring at all in this case. I'm not saying he isn't lying, but unless there is proof contrary to that, it is all the law has to go on.

Also, that whole charge only works in states other than Florida. Again with Florida, negligence and recklessness can not be charged AT ALL if the claimant can claim a legal justification for someone dying. In this case the legal claim is self defense. Without being able to thwart that claim first in Florida, no other charge can be made against him.

It's the same in my state and many others, this isn't special to FL.

I highly recommend each and every one of you look up your self defense laws for your state. I bet you'll be surprised.