Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

[Doppel]

I could have held my responses while upset, for the dust to settle and the facts to be made clear.

Now that just wouldn't be in the spirit of P&N!

 

[Jaskalas]

Instructions are over, so deliberations have begun?

 

[Svnla]

Originally the media sold this story as a small Southern town continuing 60s-era discrimination against blacks; that drew in a bunch of us. To some degree, the media is still hunting that dog even though it's pretty apparent the dog is just a gopher rat. Once we go in, there are still important issues about self defense rights, racial issues, and justice to consider. I learned pretty quickly that I was badly wrong in my initial reaction - in no small part due to information linked here - but people's reactions and the above issues made it sufficiently interesting to keep on.

Just the pure spectacle of people seeing the exact same evidence and finding that it reinforces their existing opinion on both sides of the issue is illustrative. Beyond that, most of us can see ourselves being in the same position as both these young men. Hopefully there are valuable lessons which will be learned here.

At the begining of this thread, I saw the story and the infamous picture of TM in his AF burgundy shirt with bright smile labeled as a HS teenager. I was like no way that was a HS student or recent picture and later, I was right on, that was several years old picture. Also, the picture of GZ in orange jump suite did not reflect who he was at that particular night, it also was several years old picture. I was skeptical and waiting for the trial to come and see the evidences and witnesses accounts to make up my mind.

I did not post or invest time much in this thread like some of you and the reasons that I find GZ not guilty (if I was a member of the jury) are the injuries on his nose and head, and the testimony of John. You can not overcome " beyond reasonable doubt" with those evidences and facts.

 

[corwin]

Instructions are over, so deliberations have begun?

Yep...now we wait

 

[SpatiallyAware]

The Jury for the Casey Anthony trial shedded a lot of tears because they knew that they had to vote not guilty. I would imagine that it would be way easier to send a murder to jail, no tears involved.

Good point..

 

[Ban Bot]

Did he just say Trayvon was 16 years and 21 days old?

EDIT: Yes, he did, trayvon was exactly 17 and 21 days. Strange to get that wrong.

I find this interesting: for all the hand wringing over Zimmerman's errors or lies, and there were some even if you believe he acted in legal self defense, I have not seen on person who has focused on that make as a sharp or pointed criticism of the State for the same issues. Yes, the State is not on trial. But the State has the responsibility, as an extension of the people representing the cause of the people, to represent the case fairly and accurately. Zimmerman is a citizen who may be builty of a horrendous crime. If guilty he should and must be pursued to the full extend of the law. But it is NOT the job of the Prosecution, the soveriegn Sate, to fudge evidence or worse, manufacture arguements, that don't reflect the evidence against the accused.

The State misquoted key evidence yesterday and Guy has included false facts (above). I also dislike the State moving the goal posts in regards to the self defense issue. The State should be showing why it isn't legitimate self defense. The overt appeal to emotion and loose arguements about "need" instead of "legal" is frightening. I am of the opinion this case SHOULD have gone to a grand jury in the first place (I think the locals dropped that) and I think our courts are here for cases just like this. They are here for justice for all parties involved. For those upset Zimmerman was brought to trial remember: the trial has offered him a public hearing to clear his name of any wrong doing.

I expect more from the State. Unfortunately I didn't expect more from those wanting to hang Zimmerman over his errors, lies, gaps of information, etc not holding the State to the same standard. Those folks are completely transparent. It is OK for the State to lie and fudge facts because they have "truth" on their side.

 

[Druidx]

who decides how long they deliberate before calling it a day?
Can they decide to work over if they are close to a verdict?
If they don't finish today do they continue through the weekend?

 

[Darkman]

tic toc .. tic toc ...

 

[Jaskalas]

Anyone who bet 5 minutes has lost. Could be a long weekend.

 

[Ichinisan]

tic toc .. tic toc ...

tic

 

[Ban Bot]

Agree with possum, the trial speaks to larger social issues and it is highly interesting that people presented with the same evidence and pick and choose to support their biases. Some here have admitted to changing their opinions in this case but so many are steadfast regardless of contradicting information.

Agreed. It hits all kinds of sore spots:

• 2nd Ammendment Issues
• Carry and Conceal Issues
• Stand Your Ground controversy
• Profiling: is it racist? based in hate?
• "Good ol' boy" local police and racial preference in bringing charges
• Admissability of victim's past
• Political influence over charges & process
• The President commenting & personalizing the victim but not the defense
• Media Sensationalism (e.g. NBC editing the NEN dispatch call; use of early teen pictures; early framing this as a white vs. black issuel; Zimmerman going on Hannity)
• Court intrigue and in particular items like when can you defend yourself, even if you started a conflict, can you claim self defense?

For those and other reasons I think this case has hit so many touchy topics, especially some people are passionate about (e.g. gun rights) that it sucked a lot of people in.

I would be curious how many people who are against SYG, against Carry and Conceal, and against 2nd ammendment rights, are for/against Zimmerman?

I have a limited sample size but those I know who are very anti-gun start at the position he shouldn't even be allowed to have a gun and take it from there.

 

[Druidx]

Anyone who bet 5 minutes has lost. Could be a long weekend.

I don't see how it could take more than a day. The trial wasn't all that long and about a quarter of that time was dealing with issues away from the jury.

 

[Jaskalas]

Stand Your Ground controversy

They never argued SYG, as that's a weaker argument that need not apply when "pinned on the ground".

 

[PokerGuy]

I'm guessing the judges instructions went something like this "you all know GZ is guilty, you need to go back and discuss his guilt and come up with the appropriate answer. Understood? Good."

 

[Darkman]

Judge Debra Nelson – A Lifelong Democrat

Posted on July 12, 2013 by sundance

Gee ya think? Every single behavior and personality trait of Debra Nelson screams Progressive Democrat - Put this in the ‘water is wet’ column…..

(Via TSG) Years before they would endure a televised pummeling in the Florida courtroom of Judge Debra Nelson, the two lawyers representing accused murderer George Zimmerman actually donated money to the prickly jurist’s first election campaign, records show.

In 1999, Republican Governor Jeb Bush appointed Nelson, a lifelong Democrat, to fill a vacancy in the 18th Judicial Circuit (covering Seminole and Brevard counties). When Nelson ran the following year for a full six-year term, she donated 85 percent of her campaign’s $151,000 war chest. (read more)

Read more: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/07/12/judge-debra-nelson-a-lifelong-democrat/

 

[waggy]

I'm guessing the judges instructions went something like this "you all know GZ is guilty, you need to go back and discuss his guilt and come up with the appropriate answer. Understood? Good."

lol.

that is what the state wanted..but no.

 

[Jaskalas]

Judge Debra Nelson – A Lifelong Democrat

Gee ya think? Every single behavior and personality trait of Debra Nelson screams Progressive Democrat - Put this in the ‘water is wet’ column…..

However ridiculous it was, she did throw out the child abuse charge. So she did apply a degree of fairness. My primary argument against her was a proven false alarm...

I guess there's the case of TM's cellphone...

 

[Icepick]

My bet is that we'll have a verdict on Saturday or Saturday night.

 

[corwin]

-snip-

So is this like all you do? I swear you've devoted more time and effort to this in the couple months you've been here than anyone else here has from the beginning...

What are you going to do with all the free time you have after this is over in a few hours?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I don't see how it could take more than a day. The trial wasn't all that long and about a quarter of that time was dealing with issues away from the jury.

I'm going to say by 4pm local time they will have reached their verdict.

 

[Darkman]

from CTH comments:

Stormy says:

1. 
   July 12, 2013 at 2:52 pm
   Here is what Diana Tennis tweeted in re: what if one of the 6 jurors gets sick now, after alt. dismissed:
   Alternates not permitted to deliberate, if problem with juror, both sides agree to go with 5 or mistrial.
   
   

 

[Druidx]

They never argued SYG, as that's a weaker argument that need not apply when "pinned on the ground".

He didn't say they argued SYG just that it got a lot of media buzz which got more people interested in the case.

 

[corwin]

I'm going to say by 4pm local time they will have reached their verdict.

Women can't decide on anything that fast by themselves let alone in a group

 

[Icepick]

The Seminole sherriff and the Sanford police chief are giving statements on TV right now asking residents not to turn to violence in the wake of the verdict.

 

[waggy]

from CTH comments:

Stormy says:

1. 
   July 12, 2013 at 2:52 pm
   Here is what Diana Tennis tweeted in re: what if one of the 6 jurors gets sick now, after alt. dismissed:
   Alternates not permitted to deliberate, if problem with juror, both sides agree to go with 5 or mistrial.
   
   

whaaa? that don't seem right.