Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
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Spidey - you can keep saying 'Vicious attack' all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Are you that desperate to defend this crappy law?

Show me the damage to Zimmerman from this 'vicious attack' - a bloody nose and a scrape on the back of his head?

How exactly was a 140lb kid keeping a 250lb man on his back for very long?

This law is going away - and any other poorly defined laws like it, in any other state, will as well.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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Interestingly, the 16 year old girl was hospitalized. That might explain a bit. We do not know if the Sanford police ignored the call on Martin's cell phone. People were speculating about two shots until they released ballistics showing 1 shot.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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This article - http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...eals-possible-racial-005007672--abc-news.html - does a nice job of discussing the infirmities in the way the police conducted this investigation:

The Florida police department handling the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teen by a self-appointed neighborhood watch leader admitted to ABC News tonight that investigators missed a possible racist remark by the shooter as he spoke to police dispatchers moments before the killing.

* * *

On a tape of one of Zimmerman's 911 calls the night of the shooting, he is heard saying under his breath what sounds like "f**ing coons." Seconds later he confronted Martin and after a brief scuffle shot him dead.

* * *

It's the latest in a series of possible police missteps uncovered by ABC News.

The Sanford Police Department has come under withering criticism for failing to reach out to Martin's girlfriend, who was talking to the teen on his cell phone and heard the altercation with Zimmerman take place.

Among other issues, police have been criticized for:

Withholding a batch of telling 911 calls, including the one revealing Zimmerman's possible racist remark.

Sending a narcotics detective to the scene, instead of a homicide detective, as is typical for homicides.

And failing to administer a drug and alcohol test to Zimmerman that night, which homicide investigator Rod Wheeler called a "fatal flaw in the investigation."

"The fact that Mr. Zimmerman was not given a toxicology test or breathalyzer examination is huge. Very huge," Wheeler said. He also wondered why Zimmerman's vehicle was not investigated or impounded.

The Sanford Police Department says it stands by its investigation, and that it was not race or incompetence that prevented it from arresting Zimmerman but the law.

* * *

What I find so frustrating is that the "stand your ground" defense is highly fact-specific, particularly where, as here, it appears Mr. Zimmerman's actions led directly to the apparent scuffle and shooting. He cannot, as spidey seems to think, just wave the self-defense banner and be immune from prosecution or suit - the facts are what decides that. Here, the investigation appears to have been so badly handled that it has likely spoiled any opportunity to get to the heart of what actually happened, making it very tough to prove Mr. Zimmerman guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I do hope and believe he will be civilly sued into the ground, however.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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An explanation as to why he's a murderous sociopath? I agree!

I tend to think that he's an ordinary guy who fucked up grandly and should serve as a warning to any wanna-be vigilante gun owners. If he's a murderous sociopath, then your neighbor who is into guns won't learn anything.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
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What about an interrogation of Zimmerman? Why wasn't he taken back to the station and made to go over his story over and over again to see if any inconsistencies popped up? Why wasn't he told that eyewitnesses accounts contradicted his story and given the chance to change it?

This is routine stuff when someone is a suspect in a serious crime. I think people are upset not because of one or two procedures that were missed, but because from the very beginning Zimmerman was treated more like a witness than a suspect.

You think if the cops had shown up and Martin was the one with a scraped up head and Zimmerman had a hole in his chest, the cops would have just asked Martin a few leading questions and let him go? Bull fucking shit.

how do you know he wasn't? we know he was taken into custody so that alone refutes the beginning of your statement.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,273
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Do you have evidence or proof that Z started the fight? Wounds to Martin that would show this? I think this is the main problem with people making this story up in their head - there is ZERO proof that Z initiated physical contact or the fight.

Are you saying that if Martin did initiate they fight/assault then Zimmerman was justified in shooting as he was on his back being beaten and crying for help?

As soon as Zimmerman got out of the car, he initiated that Martin needed to defend himself. If Martin had had a gun according to the idiot law, he would have been well within his rights to blast away.

Stupid macho wild west laws promoted by the NRA and ALEC.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
As soon as Zimmerman got out of the car, he initiated that Martin needed to defend himself. If Martin had had a gun according to the idiot law, he would have been well within his rights to blast away.

Stupid macho wild west laws promoted by the NRA and ALEC.

it is not against the law to follow someone. Now, if Zimmerman had say, pointed the gun at T at that point, yes, a criminal event would have started right there.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
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Doesn't matter, you still test him. Could have also been high, etc.

Based on the how poorly the investigation was done, you think these cops were observant? :biggrin:

I don't think if Zimmerman had a joint behind his ear and was streaming kiddie pronz from his iPhone these cops would have noticed or cared.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
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Do you have evidence or proof that Z started the fight? Wounds to Martin that would show this? I think this is the main problem with people making this story up in their head - there is ZERO proof that Z initiated physical contact or the fight.

Are you saying that if Martin did initiate they fight/assault then Zimmerman was justified in shooting as he was on his back being beaten and crying for help?

See my post above.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,142
5,089
136
Do you have evidence or proof that Z started the fight? Wounds to Martin that would show this? I think this is the main problem with people making this story up in their head - there is ZERO proof that Z initiated physical contact or the fight.

Are you saying that if Martin did initiate they fight/assault then Zimmerman was justified in shooting as he was on his back being beaten and crying for help?


There is ample evidence of Zimmerman initiating the encounter.
There is Zero evidence Martin initiated the fight.
There is some evidence of Zimmerman being on the bad end of a physical altercation that he initiated.

In other words, Zimmerman initiated the encounter
that led to an altercation (where there is NO evidence of who started the "fight")
that led to him being on the losing end at some point
that led to him shooting the kid.

There is a chain of events that surround every fight.
There is a beginning\middle\and an end to every fight.

The Chain of events as described by the evidence released point to Zimmerman as the aggressor.

The physical altercation (the fight) is as follows
Beginning - Unknown...zero evidence available at the moment who laid hands on who.
Middle - There is evidence that Zimmerman ended up on the losing side of the fight
End - Zimmerman is able to reach his weapon and shoot Martin.

Zimmerman stalks Martin
Zimmerman exits vehicle and pursues Martin
Zimmerman initiates contact with Martin
Zimmerman and Martin fight (no evidence of who threw first punch)
Zimmerman kills Martin.

You are fond of saying "he was on his back being beaten and crying for help?"

I will counter that Zimmerman shot the kid because he bit off more than he could chew and the kid got the better of him in a fight that began with Zimmerman stalking a kid at night,
chasing him on foot,
grabbing him (thinking he was some scrawny punk)
and the kid fought back in self defense (since Zimmerman grabbing the kid could fall under the category of assualt).
Its not that I have any more facts than anyone else but since I shat on your assumptions its only fair that I give you something in return.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Doesn't matter, you still test him. Could have also been high, etc.

Based on the how poorly the investigation was done, you think these cops were observant? :biggrin:

http://communities.washingtontimes....mar/20/trayvon-martin-case-and-legal-experts/

Mr. Zimmerman was not tested for drugs or alcohol. Trayvon Martin was.
Except for DUIs, police cannot test suspects for drugs or alcohol, unless the accused demands or consents to it, or they get a warrant. Trayvon Martin was tested for drugs and alcohol because it is the normal procedure of autopsies to determine the exact cause of death or contributing factors of death. The so-called law enforcement and legal experts who claim Zimmerman should have been tested demonstrate they have no expertise. As stated before, they are carnival barkers.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
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isn't that what a drug test is? ship a cup of urine or a hair sample?
Yes, but ballistics tests are likely a standard requirement whenever shots are fired. A drug test that isn't a default requirement would mean an investigating officer chose to do more work than required.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
This article - http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...eals-possible-racial-005007672--abc-news.html - does a nice job of discussing the infirmities in the way the police conducted this investigation:



What I find so frustrating is that the "stand your ground" defense is highly fact-specific, particularly where, as here, it appears Mr. Zimmerman's actions led directly to the apparent scuffle and shooting. He cannot, as spidey seems to think, just wave the self-defense banner and be immune from prosecution or suit - the facts are what decides that. Here, the investigation appears to have been so badly handled that it has likely spoiled any opportunity to get to the heart of what actually happened, making it very tough to prove Mr. Zimmerman guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I do hope and believe he will be civilly sued into the ground, however.
Well said.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
There's no evidence in this case that shows who started the fight. What is known and verified by an eye witness is that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him just prior to the gun shot.

we also know that Z fallowed him, chased him and confronted him. I would understand T reacting.

Does that really give Z the right to shoot? by law yes.

Should Z be charged with murder? i feel he should be. the law was badly written and its going to allow Z to get off.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Yes, but ballistics tests are likely a standard requirement whenever shots are fired. A drug test that isn't a default requirement would mean an investigating officer chose to do more work than required.

well we're moving the goal posts now, aren't we?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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I tend to think that he's an ordinary guy who fucked up grandly and should serve as a warning to any wanna-be vigilante gun owners. If he's a murderous sociopath, then your neighbor who is into guns won't learn anything.

The guy who 'defended him' says he was a hothead with a weapon and 'couldn't take it anymore'. That's not really an ordinary guy who just fucked up, that's someone who shouldn't have a fucking gun in the first place.