Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I suggest you read your posts prior to today in this thread. You came across as a racist George Zimmerman and I called you out on it. Now, you're being semi-impartial, total 180. Though if you think saying racist comments in the heat of things is not racists, that's racist.

WTF are you talking about? You mean me replying as idiotic as some of the other posters were to an issue.

This is why I keep reiterating my take on it.

Or is it only you and others that can do the sarcasm thing?

I don't think there is any racism in this altercation other than the kind of stuff many would do.

What's hilarious is people going on record here saying people don't use these derogatory terms unless they are fully a racist with a seething hate for all of that color.

I'd suggest most listen to random 911 calls on line. Some of the stuff is really messed up.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
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wow are you saying people don't use words like ******s, spics, honkey, cracker, etc when calling 911, when talking to police?

There are many people that are friends with tons of black people and will use ****** to describe one that is a criminal the same as they might refer to white trash/beloved patriot/cracker or beloved patriot/beloved patriot....etc.

You are really playing stupid there. This is simple human nature. I don't agree with it, but I guess in your world you are either a hard-core racist or not...there is no difference.

Sure people use those words when calling 911 or in general but do you know what they call it when you use racist word AND then go and kill the person? That's hate crime.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
If you've been told it's "coons" and expecting it to be that, then it's gonna sound like "coons". The power of suggestion is powerful.

Of course if you've already convinced yourself that it's "coons", you are not gonna hear any other possibilities.

This is indeed the problem.

I am sort of in agreement that is what he said, but it's also definitely not authorative like he is enraged and professing his hate for everything black.

So far, google at least has shown experts are not sure on the first sound, but the options it could be don't make a lot of sense.
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,132
93
91
More possible bias from the local PD? So you run a drug and alcohol test on the dead kid (which comes back clean) but you don't run it on the shooter who you have in custody? Even just as part of normal procedure in a killing?

--------

He also criticized police for performing a background check on Martin and testing him for drugs and alcohol, procedures that he said had not been applied with Zimmerman.

http://news.yahoo.com/phone-call-sheds-light-florida-killing-lawyer-175120745.html
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I actually thought that he might have said, "fucking close"

it's definitely 'these fucking' preceeding the third word.

"these fucking close" wouldn't make sense.

All I am hoping is the tapes making rounds weren't media doctored and later claimed simply 'tweaked incorrectly to boost the inaudible sounds'.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Yeah, I would say I'm 80% certain he said "fucking coons"

He said it after saying, "he's running" meaning that at that point he is chasing after Martin on foot and since the fat fuck is out of shape, he's mad at having to run.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
More possible bias from the local PD? So you run a drug and alcohol test on the dead kid (which comes back clean) but you don't run it on the shooter who you have in custody? Even just as part of normal procedure in a killing?

--------

He also criticized police for performing a background check on Martin and testing him for drugs and alcohol, procedures that he said had not been applied with Zimmerman.

http://news.yahoo.com/phone-call-sheds-light-florida-killing-lawyer-175120745.html

We don't know if Zimmerman was given a sobriety test. We do know that Zimmerman made claims this kid was acting like he was on drugs.

Doing a drug test and invalidating that possibility actually helps Martin. If it did come back positive, it still wouldn't condone him.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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38
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it's definitely 'these fucking' preceeding the third word.

"these fucking close" wouldn't make sense.

All I am hoping is the tapes making rounds weren't media doctored and later claimed simply 'tweaked incorrectly to boost the inaudible sounds'.

Stop being so dense. "These assholes always get away." and "Fucking coons." are two separate sentences. Two, not one. 2, not 1.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
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I don't think the kid was on drugs. He was staying with family in a new house so doing drugs would have been difficult to say the least.

He was listening to music which kind of is a drug, you know?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Sure people use those words when calling 911 or in general but do you know what they call it when you use racist word AND then go and kill the person? That's hate crime.

not really, a hate crime is a bit more complicated than that. Many assaults start with racially derogatory terms thrown at each other and sometimes end with people dead or in the hospital.

If they fell under 'hate crimes' a lot more would be done.

People want this to be a hate crime for whatever reason, I think it was a crime of both sides being a little stupid.
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,302
1
0
This is indeed the problem.

I am sort of in agreement that is what he said, but it's also definitely not authorative like he is enraged and professing his hate for everything black.

If he did indeed say "coons" then it clearly shows he is racist. Simple as that. It's doesn't matter how angrily he said it, just saying it is enough.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
not really, a hate crime is a bit more complicated than that. Many assaults start with racially derogatory terms thrown at each other and sometimes end with people dead or in the hospital.

If they fell under 'hate crimes' a lot more would be done.

People want this to be a hate crime for whatever reason, I think it was a crime of both sides being a little stupid.

I made that point earlier. But yes, hate crimes are about motivations at the start of the conflict, not by words used in the heat of it.

Honestly, the guy has lots of black neighbors and black family members. He doesn't strike me as the racist type.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Stop being so dense. "These assholes always get away." and "Fucking coons." are two separate sentences. Two, not one. 2, not 1.

What are you talking about, you aren't even quoting them correctly?

I realize this, I posted a transcript.

The full sentence in question is:

[to dispatch while on foot] "The back entrance...[whispering]these fucking ?oons"

However; many were debating the "these assholes, they always get away" could not have been "these fucking coons". They really didn't do their own listening.

I did.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
I don't think the kid was on drugs. He was staying with family in a new house so doing drugs would have been difficult to say the least.

He was listening to music which kind of is a drug, you know?

Why the fuck are you even speculating that the kid was doing drugs?
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,132
93
91
Martin is almost a foot taller than zimmerman. Disparity of force could come into play giving more credence to zimmerman's story and the vicious attack by Martin on a guy who just wanted to ask what he was doing/allowed to be there/who he was visiting.

Martin, feeling much disrespected, viciously attacks zimmerman, Martin is the aggressor. Then zimmerman on his back, crying for help, is forced to shoot his assailant.

I welcome full access to all the evidence. Likely if it goes to grand jury and no indictment we'll never see that evidence as to protect the victim (zimmerman).

I love the image of a 6'8" 140lb human being - it's awesome.

A lot of this world comes down to credibility. On one hand you have a guy who previously assaulted a police officer, had complaints about him in his community, volunteered for watch, called 911 over 50 times, was 28 years old, has 911 quotes showing his bias, was overweight and basically a pretty big loser.

On the other hand you have a 17 year old kid who got As and Bs in school, had no record, played football for his high school, had a girlfriend and by all reports a good kid.

I'm not sure how anyone takes Zimmerman's testimony at face value - his background and history do not support it.

Take that lack of physical ability and suddenly a bloody nose and some scratches are a "vicious attack". The result of the "vicious attack" are Zimmerman is able to stand up, speak coherently to witness and police who are on site within a minute, be cognizant of his position and place the gun on the ground and claim self defense.

Witnesses also stated the two became separated during their fight which gives just as much probability that Zimmerman executed Martin after having him cowered and defenseless after pulling his gun out.

Zimmerman's past violent behavior and profile point to a person who wanted to forcibly detain Martin, initiated contact, was found to be a useless bag of flesh and got hit a few times. To redeem himself after they break apart, he pulls his gun and executes a screaming Maritn.
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
If he did indeed say "coons" then it clearly shows he is racist. Simple as that. It's doesn't matter how angrily he said it, just saying it is enough.

racist enough to commit a hate crime, to kill?

Most people are racist sadly. Most people are against other religions. Many people are against the opposite sex. That whole 'equal opportunity' deal is to let everyone know if they are going to work together they need to keep the drama to themselves.

Most people aren't going to harm or kill someone one due to that race or religion. Although there are many that will.

I use hoodrat now. It's racially neutral and can be used on a white, black, spanish etc person without having to resort to more specific terms.
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,132
93
91
We don't know if Zimmerman was given a sobriety test. We do know that Zimmerman made claims this kid was acting like he was on drugs.

Doing a drug test and invalidating that possibility actually helps Martin. If it did come back positive, it still wouldn't condone him.

I have no issue with the police running a drug test on Martin's body - it should be part of any killing investigation to get a full and clear understanding of what happened.

My issue is that they didn't do the same for Zimmerman who regardless of whether you believe him, pulled the trigger. Seems like it should be part of any fair investigation.

This combined with the local PD not running a background check on Zimmerman but taking his claims he never had any run-ins with the law don't reflect well on them.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
It takes a rare lack of intelligence to try to string these "thoughts" together. I also love the image of a 6'8" 140lb human being - it's awesome.

A lot of this world comes down to credibility. On one hand you have a guy who previously assaulted a police officer, had complaints about him in his community, volunteered for watch, called 911 over 50 times, was 28 years old, has 911 quotes showing his bias, was overweight and basically a pretty big loser.

On the other hand you have a 17 year old kid who got As and Bs in school, had no record, played football for his high school, had a girlfriend and by all reports a good kid.

I'm not sure how anyone takes Zimmerman's testimony as face value - his background and history do not support it.

Take that lack of physical ability and suddenly a bloody nose and some scratches are a "vicious attack". The result of the "vicious attack" are Zimmerman is able to stand up, speak coherently to witness and police who are on site within a minute, be cognizant of his position and place the gun on the ground and claim self defense.

Witnesses also stated the two became separated during their fight which gives just as much probability that Zimmerman executed Martin after having him cowered and defenseless after pulling his gun out.

Zimmerman's past violent behavior and profile point to a person who wanted to forcibly detain Martin, initiated contact, was found to be a useless bag of flesh and got hit a few times. To redeem himself after they break apart, he pulls his gun and executes a screaming Maritn.

I don't fully believe him but so far his story has fully checked out with witnesses. And information is very limited so it's all we have. The person who saw them separated witnessed this shortly after the shooting was over, but not leading up to it. her name is Mary Cutcher and it is my belief that much that she has said is just wrong.

As to not testing Zimmerman for drugs, that seems like an oversight that isn't really important, since Zimmerman on drugs doesn't really change anything in regards to his actions.

You do realize that the police had him at gunpoint when they arrived, right?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
It takes a rare lack of intelligence to try to string these "thoughts" together. I also love the image of a 6'8" 140lb human being - it's awesome.

A lot of this world comes down to credibility. On one hand you have a guy who previously assaulted a police officer, had complaints about him in his community, volunteered for watch, called 911 over 50 times, was 28 years old, has 911 quotes showing his bias, was overweight and basically a pretty big loser.

On the other hand you have a 17 year old kid who got As and Bs in school, had no record, played football for his high school, had a girlfriend and by all reports a good kid.

I'm not sure how anyone takes Zimmerman's testimony as face value - his background and history do not support it.

Take that lack of physical ability and suddenly a bloody nose and some scratches are a "vicious attack". The result of the "vicious attack" are Zimmerman is able to stand up, speak coherently to witness and police who are on site within a minute, be cognizant of his position and place the gun on the ground and claim self defense.

Witnesses also stated the two became separated during their fight which gives just as much probability that Zimmerman executed Martin after having him cowered and defenseless after pulling his gun out.

Zimmerman's past violent behavior and profile point to a person who wanted to forcibly detain Martin, initiated contact, was found to be a useless bag of flesh and got hit a few times. To redeem himself after they break apart, he pulls his gun and executes a screaming Maritn.

It's not unusual at all to be a victim of even major trauma and be ok immediately after. Look at Liam Neelson's wife when she hit her head skiing...

This is an extreme one from one of the Allman Brother's band members, the Bassist Oakley:
On November 11, 1972, Oakley was involved in a motorcycle accident in Macon, Georgia, just three blocks from where Duane Allman had his fatal motorcycle accident the year before. Oakley was driving around a sharp right bend of the road on Napier Avenue at Inverness when he crossed the line and collided at an angle twice with a city bus making the bend from the opposite direction. After striking the front and then the back of the bus, Oakley was thrown from his bike, just as Allman had been, and struck his head. Oakley said he was okay after the accident, declined medical treatment, and caught a ride home. Three hours later, he was rushed to the hospital, delirious and in pain, and died of cerebral swelling caused by a fractured skull. Attending doctors stated that even if Oakley had gone straight to the hospital from the scene of the accident, he could not have been saved
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
I love the image of a 6'8" 140lb human being - it's awesome.

A lot of this world comes down to credibility. On one hand you have a guy who previously assaulted a police officer, had complaints about him in his community, volunteered for watch, called 911 over 50 times, was 28 years old, has 911 quotes showing his bias, was overweight and basically a pretty big loser.

On the other hand you have a 17 year old kid who got As and Bs in school, had no record, played football for his high school, had a girlfriend and by all reports a good kid.

I'm not sure how anyone takes Zimmerman's testimony at face value - his background and history do not support it.

Take that lack of physical ability and suddenly a bloody nose and some scratches are a "vicious attack". The result of the "vicious attack" are Zimmerman is able to stand up, speak coherently to witness and police who are on site within a minute, be cognizant of his position and place the gun on the ground and claim self defense.

Witnesses also stated the two became separated during their fight which gives just as much probability that Zimmerman executed Martin after having him cowered and defenseless after pulling his gun out.

Zimmerman's past violent behavior and profile point to a person who wanted to forcibly detain Martin, initiated contact, was found to be a useless bag of flesh and got hit a few times. To redeem himself after they break apart, he pulls his gun and executes a screaming Maritn.

You see, you're biased. I agree that Martin was likely a better human being than Zimmerman, but that doesn't really matter when discussing what actually happened that night.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I don't fully believe him but so far his story has fully checked out with witnesses. And information is very limited so it's all we have. The person who saw them separated witnessed this shortly after the shooting was over, but not leading up to it. her name is Mary Cutcher and it is my belief that much that she has said is just wrong.

As to not testing Zimmerman for drugs, that seems like an oversight that isn't really important, since Zimmerman on drugs doesn't really change anything in regards to his actions.

You do realize that the police had him at gunpoint when they arrived, right?

The problem I have with Mary Cutcher is her story keeps evolving and it's clear she wants to be contacted by the media now when she first did not want to be involved. I am sure she is thinking book deal or to do the talk show circuit.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
The problem I have with Mary Cutcher is her story keeps evolving and it's clear she wants to be contacted by the media now when she first did not want to be involved. I am sure she is thinking book deal or to do the talk show circuit.

I wouldn't go that far, at least yet. She likely does want to do the right thing. However, all she witnessed was:

1. the sound of the gunshot.
2. the aftermath of the shooting.

She never saw the actual struggle and yet she is going around talking authoritatively like she knew what happened.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
I don't fully believe him but so far his story has fully checked out with witnesses. And information is very limited so it's all we have. The person who saw them separated witnessed this shortly after the shooting was over, but not leading up to it. her name is Mary Cutcher and it is my belief that much that she has said is just wrong.

As to not testing Zimmerman for drugs, that seems like an oversight that isn't really important, since Zimmerman on drugs doesn't really change anything in regards to his actions.

You do realize that the police had him at gunpoint when they arrived, right?

Wrong on the bolded part. The 13 yr old out walking his dog saw both men on the ground but seperated before the shot.

As to the part about Zimmerman not being tested for drugs, that's standard procedure in a homicide case. They (the police) willfully went against procedure.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I have no issue with the police running a drug test on Martin's body - it should be part of any killing investigation to get a full and clear understanding of what happened.

My issue is that they didn't do the same for Zimmerman who regardless of whether you believe him, pulled the trigger. Seems like it should be part of any fair investigation.

This combined with the local PD not running a background check on Zimmerman but taking his claims he never had any run-ins with the law don't reflect well on them.

We don't know what has been done with Zimmerman yet, no one has made that statement.

In general (and it's argued heavily) there isn't a mandatory drug/alcohol test in any kind of killing or event with major trauma, at least in self defense issues I know for sure.

However; if the police suspect or it's claimed they were drunk/high/etc I think they can get one ordered even in self-defense cases.

I know there is lobbying to make any action whether warranted or criminal that kills or causes major trauma to have all parties tested for drugs and alcohol.

To me I am sure many of the occupy wallstreet types that have been carted away don't think they really had run-ins with the law either.