Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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For what? I don't see any federal laws that he violated. It is entirely a state local criminal law matter.

Federal civil rights violations. Exerpt from 1961 revision...

Circumstances changed in 1961 when the Supreme Court of the United States articulated three purposes that underlay the statute: "1) 'to override certain kinds of state laws'; 2) to provide 'a remedy where state law was inadequate'; and 3) to provide 'a federal remedy where the state remedy, though adequate in theory, was not available in practice.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
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Based on T's last call his walking pattern probably became erratic after he spotted Z following him and T was trying to get away. No evidence T was lost.

In the 911 call Z said he "thinks" T is black(surmised before call). Later in the call he confirmed. There was nothing else that warranted suspicious bahavior.

If you're lost in a neighborhood, you look intently at the house numbers. This can be interpreted badly, as in the case of Zimmerman. Zimmerman states in the 911 call that T is looking weirdly at the houses which I believe means that T is INNOCENTLY lost, not that he has any criminal intent, but instead is just trying to find his way home.

But I'm just saying that you have to consider their individual perspectives and their limited knowledge. Being suspicious of a guy you don't recognize staring intently at houses is not unreasonable.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
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If you're lost in a neighborhood, you look intently at the house numbers. This can be interpreted badly, as in the case of Zimmerman. Zimmerman states in the 911 call that T is looking weirdly at the houses which I believe means that T is INNOCENTLY lost, not that he has any criminal intent, but instead is just trying to find his way home.

But I'm just saying that you have to consider their individual perspectives and their limited knowledge. Being suspicious of a guy you don't recognize staring intently at houses is not unreasonable.

We don't really know T was doing that. You are taking Z's word.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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We don't really know T was doing that. You are taking Z's word.

I am taking into account Z's misperceptions, but I do not believe that he knowingly lied to make this some sort of perfect murder. He simply saw things the wrong way.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
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the stand your ground law is shitty but...states are allowed to pass ill-conceived laws.

Yes states can pass shitty laws. Our federalist system allows it.

The federal CR laws were started in the 1800s because states were allowing the Klan to hunt down newly freed slaves. The laws are still on the books today. It may be the only way for the Martin family to get justice.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
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Yes states can pass shitty laws. Our federalist system allows it.

The federal CR laws were started in the 1800s because states were allowing the Klan to hunt down newly freed slaves. The laws are still on the books today. It may be the only way for the Martin family to get justice.

How many times...

1. Zimmerman got along fine with his black neighbors.

2. he has several black relatives.

Most importantly, the law is NOT being selectively used here. There have been a dozen of cases in FL where someone kills another in a public place, claims self-defense, and is not prosecuted. I don't see how this could be a hate crime.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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Karmy, why do you keep saying the Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman raining down multiple punches when there is no witness nor mention of that in any articles I've seen?

Z's only wounds were a bloody nose and some blood on the back of his head. If Trayvon was repeatedly punching Zimmerman while straddling him, don't you think there's be much more damage to him? You've made this point several times and if you have any evidence other than the women who said T was on top (but never mentioned any punching) please post it or quit saying otherwise.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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I am talking about the girl on the phone with Trayvon, which I agree is groundbreaking.

After listening to the 911 tapes I am starting to discount Mary Cutcher's interviews.

Here is why.

She heard screaming and then saw the immediate aftermath of the shooting.

The screaming in the911 tapes is inconclusive and yet she keeps on saying that it was Martin's.

She saw Zimmerman standing over Martin shortly after the shooting. But Martin was shot in the chest and fell face-down. That means that what she saw was Zimmerman after he had shot Martin and gotten up off the ground. She took this to mean that Zimmerman had shot Martin while standing over Martin.

In the meanwhile, we have other witnesses who saw Martin (white shirt) on top of Zimmerman (red shirt)

The police are right on this one. All that Ms. Cutcher heard was indeterminate screaming and all that she saw was Zimmerman shortly after the confrontation was over.

Way to go imagining up things to support your stand. You hear the tape, she heard the scream right there, to you maybe it's inclusive, but she knows what she hear. Adult voice and young teen voice isn't that difficult to differentiate.

You keep on saying Martin is on top of Zimmerman, so what? First of all your 45 second beating, seriously if someone gets 45 second of punching in the face, he would have many bruises on the face, probably get a concussion, maybe need some medical attention. All Zimmerman got was a bloody nose and some scratch at the back of the head probably due to falling down.

We know Zimmerman is paranoid, there is the 911 tape to prove that. He already made up his mind that Trayvon was a criminal, that's why he probably use the deadly force when he wasn't even seriously hurt or threatened. I am sure the police and eye witness would have told the press if Zimmerman was seriously hurt of beaten up.

You can keep insist what you want to believe. But the bottom line is this, a young boy with nothing but ice tea and Skittle going back to his family was killed. This boy can be anyone's son or daughter. We can not allow America to be a society where anyone's kid can be taken down by people like Zimmerman. What happened that night was wrong, from the very core. So stop trying to find excuse for Zimmerman and start trying to find some solution so we can all prevent this from happening.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Karmy, why do you keep saying the Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman raining down multiple punches when there is no witness nor mention of that in any articles I've seen?

Z's only wounds were a bloody nose and some blood on the back of his head. If Trayvon was repeatedly punching Zimmerman while straddling him, don't you think there's be much more damage to him? You've made this point several times and if you have any evidence other than the women who said T was on top (but never mentioned any punching) please post it or quit saying otherwise.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...n-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.
"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pfn8ShJc

IN another 911 call you hear a woman describing the man on top as wearing a white t shirt. In another you hear screaming for 45 seconds before a shot rings out.

Piece it together and Trayvon was beating Zimmerman for 45 seconds or more on the ground before being shot. Trayvon was shot in the chest and fell face down onto the grass, which is consistent only if he is on top of Zimmerman when he is shot.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
514
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There have been a dozen of cases in FL where someone kills another in a public place, claims self-defense, and is not prosecuted.

I think that this is enough evidence, that even if Mr. Zimmerman is exonerated by the law, that it is too broad and should be struck down or changed to reflect that if you chase down someone then start losing a fight with someone you can't claim self-defense because you took actions that directly or indirectly led to your asswhooping.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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From the 911 call, Zimmerman has a high voice, not a deep masculine voice. So it probably really is him screaming.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
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I think that this is enough evidence, that even if Mr. Zimmerman is exonerated by the law, that it is too broad and should be struck down or changed to reflect that if you chase down someone then start losing a fight with someone you can't claim self-defense because you took actions that directly or indirectly led to your asswhooping.

Oh, I agree on that. At the very least he should have been arrested and tried.

More than anything, I'm defending the PD's handling of the case.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
How many times...

1. Zimmerman got along fine with his black neighbors.

2. he has several black relatives.

Most importantly, the law is NOT being selectively used here. There have been a dozen of cases in FL where someone kills another in a public place, claims self-defense, and is not prosecuted. I don't see how this could be a hate crime.

Geez I was trying to agree with you on something and you revert back to "some of my best friends are black defense"?

Point is fed CR laws will step in because state law was so poorly written it allowed Z to execute a completely innocent person. DA won't even have to use race as an imputus.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
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Way to go imagining up things to support your stand. You hear the tape, she heard the scream right there, to you maybe it's inclusive, but she knows what she hear. Adult voice and young teen voice isn't that difficult to differentiate.

You keep on saying Martin is on top of Zimmerman, so what? First of all your 45 second beating, seriously if someone gets 45 second of punching in the face, he would have many bruises on the face, probably get a concussion, maybe need some medical attention. All Zimmerman got was a bloody nose and some scratch at the back of the head probably due to falling down.

We know Zimmerman is paranoid, there is the 911 tape to prove that. He already made up his mind that Trayvon was a criminal, that's why he probably use the deadly force when he wasn't even seriously hurt or threatened. I am sure the police and eye witness would have told the press if Zimmerman was seriously hurt of beaten up.

You can keep insist what you want to believe. But the bottom line is this, a young boy with nothing but ice tea and Skittle going back to his family was killed. This boy can be anyone's son or daughter. We can not allow America to be a society where anyone's kid can be taken down by people like Zimmerman. What happened that night was wrong, from the very core. So stop trying to find excuse for Zimmerman and start trying to find some solution so we can all prevent this from happening.

We haven't seen pictures of Zimmerman, but it's not too hard to shield yourself with your arms. And shooting in fear of grave bodily injury prevents grave bodily injury from occurring.

and Zimmerman has a pretty high voice. It probably was him screaming.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...n-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation



IN another 911 call you hear a woman describing the man on top as wearing a white t shirt. In another you hear screaming for 45 seconds before a shot rings out.

Piece it together and Trayvon was beating Zimmerman for 45 seconds or more on the ground before being shot. Trayvon was shot in the chest and fell face down onto the grass, which is consistent only if he is on top of Zimmerman when he is shot.

You're starting to sound like spidey here. No one mentioned multiple punches or any punches at all in either call. The mother of the deceased has already claimed it was her son crying for help in the multiple seconds before the shot rang out.

Forensics also have not come out and we don't know if Z shot M from under him or not.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
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Geez I was trying to agree with you on something and you revert back to "some of my best friends are black defense"?

Point is fed CR laws will step in because state law was so poorly written it allowed Z to execute a completely innocent person. DA won't even have to use race as an imputus.

I don't think he is a racist, no. He has no history of anything racist and is related by blood to several black people.

The issue is that this law has been used many times in the past to allow people who kill in public to walk, and it hasn't been struck down before. I simply don't see how the feds can strike it down.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Karmy, why do you keep saying the Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman raining down multiple punches when there is no witness nor mention of that in any articles I've seen?

Z's only wounds were a bloody nose and some blood on the back of his head. If Trayvon was repeatedly punching Zimmerman while straddling him, don't you think there's be much more damage to him? You've made this point several times and if you have any evidence other than the women who said T was on top (but never mentioned any punching) please post it or quit saying otherwise.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pbSX6gLs

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Zimmerman was wearing a red sweater.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
You're starting to sound like spidey here. No one mentioned multiple punches in either call. The mother of the deceased has already claimed it was her son crying for help in the multiple seconds before the shot rang out.

Forensics also have not come out and we don't know if Z shot M from under him or not.

There are callers who said that there are two men fighting on the lawn. I take that to mean they are punching, since that is what you do in a fight. Or maybe kicking. whatever.

The mother of the deceased is obviously biased. I feel badly for her, but you can't just go by what she thinks she heard, because it really is inconclusive who is screaming, though I suspect that Z being under T would likely be screaming since he is under T.

We know that T ended up face-down on the ground with a gunshot to his chest. That sounds like shooting someone out from under.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
I don't think he is a racist, no. He has no history of anything racist and is related by blood to several black people.

The issue is that this law has been used many times in the past to allow people who kill in public to walk, and it hasn't been struck down before. I simply don't see how the feds can strike it down.

I don't know enough about previous cases. Were any of those people killed completely innocent? That's what makes this case ripe for CR prosecution.