UN Demands Israeli Pullout 'Without Delay'

[ThePresence]

<< Why can't they just pull out? You say it won't solve anything, maybe that's true, but it's the first step. If they shouldn't be there in the first place then no matter what has transpired in the interim they still shouldn't be there now. >>



If they just pull out, then anything they meant to achieve by going in is lost. They wanted to uproot the the terrorist infrastructure that is killing their unarmed civillians by the dozen. If they pull out now with the infrastructure still intact, then Israeli civillians will still be killed by terrorist suicide bombers. That's not to say that they wont be anyway, but the chances of bombing happening will be dramatically reduced if there is no command structure, monetary support or incitement. They had to go in because they couldn't just sit on their collective asses and watch their citizens get picked off ten by ten. So lets wait and see if they can achieve anything before forcing them to pull out. Sorry if that was long-winded and repetitive.

 

[busmaster11]

Yeah, whatever. Palestinians are no doubt perpetuating terror, but how many of you guys think Sharon's actually doing a good job?

How many of you actually think what he has accomplished so far (nothing!) couldn't have been done with *less* bloodshed?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

So lets wait and see if they can achieve anything before forcing them to pull out.

They've had over 30 years, they've been employing terrorist tactics themselves, I don't think anything is going to get better with them there.

 

[ThePresence]

<< Yeah, whatever. Palestinians are no doubt perpetuating terror, but how many of you guys think Sharon's actually doing a good job?

How many of you actually think what he has accomplished so far (nothing!) couldn't have been done with *less* bloodshed? >>



Thats right. Israel should just sit on their hands and watch their citizens get killed. Jeeeez. You admit that the Palestinains are terrorizing the Israeli population, but you question Sharon's performance. My gosh, what would you have him do? When he didnt do anything to try to stop it (besides trying to talk peace) he was critisized, and now when he actually tries to put a stop to it, he's critisized again. He's caught between the dog and the hydrant.

 

[ThePresence]

<< So lets wait and see if they can achieve anything before forcing them to pull out.

They've had over 30 years, they've been employing terrorist tactics themselves, I don't think anything is going to get better with them there. >>



Oh, you must mean the way Israeli civillians are blowing themselves up in Palestinian resturants.

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< Yeah, whatever. Palestinians are no doubt perpetuating terror, but how many of you guys think Sharon's actually doing a good job?

How many of you actually think what he has accomplished so far (nothing!) couldn't have been done with *less* bloodshed? >>



Thats right. Israel should just sit on their hands and watch their citizens get killed. Jeeeez. You admit that the Palestinains are terrorizing the Israeli population, but you question Sharon's performance. My gosh, what would you have him do? When he didnt do anything to try to stop it (besides trying to talk peace) he was critisized, and now when he actually tries to put a stop to it, he's critisized again. He's caught between the dog and the hydrant. >>



He could have taken a much more diplomatic or progessive stance when he took office. Under him the Palestinians know they have much less of a chance to separate. He screwed his whole country this way...

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

These fanatics only understand one thing, and that is bloodshed. They see things like compromise and tolerence in their enemies as weakness and just drives them to fight harder. You have to fight fire with fire when it comes to these nuts. Why oh why do people still not understand this?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Oh, you must mean the way Israeli civillians are blowing themselves up in Palestinian resturants.

Nah, just the way they've sanctioned the massacre of civilians in refugee camps.

 

[ThePresence]

<< He could have taken a much more diplomatic or progessive stance when he took office. Under him the Palestinians know they have much less of a chance to separate. He screwed his whole country this way... >>



Uh huh. Diplomacy and a "progressive stance" while murderous attacks are being carried out daily. He screwed no one. Israeli citizens knew who he was and knew his politcs. They had realized that a hardliner is needed, because pussyfooting it like Barak and Peres liked to was just gonna cause more bombings. Sharon is giving it a shot, and he's the first to try. Give him a chance.

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< He could have taken a much more diplomatic or progessive stance when he took office. Under him the Palestinians know they have much less of a chance to separate. He screwed his whole country this way... >>



Uh huh. Diplomacy and a "progressive stance" while murderous attacks are being carried out daily. He screwed no one. Israeli citizens knew who he was and knew his politcs. They had realized that a hardliner is needed, because pussyfooting it like Barak and Peres liked to was just gonna cause more bombings. Sharon is giving it a shot, and he's the first to try. Give him a chance. >>



Suicide bombings were not happening daily a year ago when he was elected. Yet most people knew it was going to boil over in this when he did... It didn't have to be like this.

Let me ask you a question - what do you anticipate will be the best possible outcome of all this? Who will own the land and who will live in it?

 

[ThePresence]

<< Suicide bombings were not happening daily a year ago when he was elected. Yet most people knew it was going to boil over in this when he did... It didn't have to be like this.

Let me ask you a question - what do you anticipate will be the best possible outcome of all this? Who will own the land and who will live in it? >>



Sharon was took office I believe (although I'm not 100% sure) on March 7th, 2001. By that time 420 people, Israelis and Palestinians had already been killed five months of fighting. No, suicide bombing weren't happening daily, but the violence was going on. As to what the best possible outcome is, obviously, 2 existing states side by side living peacefully. I doubt this will ever happen, as there are too many terrorist networks comitted to the destruction of Israel.

 

[Red Dawn]

Man I didn't know every Palestineand was a member of Hamas or Hezhollah. The things you learn in this forum.

The problem for us is that this situation in Israel is undermining our objective to gain support in our war against Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, we need to have the Arab Gulf States to cooperate or we won't be able to successfully conduct a successful campaign against Bin Laden and his kind. Sadam Hussien is gaining support even from those whom he threatened over a Decade ago by financially supporting the Palestinian so called "Freedom Fighters" which of course are just pawns in his grand Scheme, Iran is flaunting their support for Al Qaeda because they know that while this fighting is going on we are powerless to do anything about it and the Islamic Extremists in Pakistan are gaining popularity within that Country. This is the worse case scenario for us and it might be in our best interest to pressure the Israelis into withdrawing. I still think shoving a couple of sticks up Sharon's ass and arranging a meeting between him and Arafat then blowing them both up would go a long way in settling this situation down.

Sharon to the Palestinians is the equivalent of Bin Laden to us. They will never back down until he is out of office. That's not saying Sharon is a Terrorist like Bin Laden, that's just how the Arabs and the Palestinians view him. He's an avid supporter of the Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Territory and he is as Anti Arab as the Hamas are Anti Jewish. Many od those who support him belong to groups in Israel that do not want peace. They want to drive the Palestinians from that whole area by force and are willing to sacrifices innocent civilians to achieve their goal. In fact, it was one of those Ultra Right Wing Extremists who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin because he was considering closing down the Israeli Settlements as a means to achieve a lasting peace with the Palestineans.

Arafat and his merry Group of Widow Makers are even worse. Cold Blooded Killers teaching the Palestinian children that the US and the Jews are the scourge if Islam and that there is no greater honor than killing us. It is as if we are dealing with Rabid Animals on both sides. In the West, the people are lining up behind Israel and in the Middle East they are lining up behind Arafat, Hussien and any other Leader who denounces Israel and the US. If this doesn't stop soon I'm afraid that this may lead to all out war. We can't count on our European Allies with the exception of Britain and the likelihood of all hell breaking loose between Pakistan and India is a given which would draw China into the conflict. If you think about it just might be in our best interest to kick Israel to the curb. Of course that will never happen, as we aren't the kind of Nation to abandon our allies even when it might mean the begining of our demise.

 

[Tiger]

ALL RIGHT!!

What happened to the real RED DAWN?
If you let him go nobody will get hurt.

 

[busmaster11]

<< As to what the best possible outcome is, obviously, 2 existing states side by side living peacefully. I doubt this will ever happen, as there are too many terrorist networks comitted to the destruction of Israel. >>



That's what we'd all hope for too...

Not to loose too much respect (if thats even possible ) in this discussion by asking such an obvious question - but why doesn't Isreal just pull out permanently and acknowledge the Palestinians' right to exist? I mean yeah you risk there still being the occasional yahoo on a suicide spree, but its gotta be better than this... Unless he somehow hopes that one day Isreal can occupy that land with Isrealis peacefully which I think is highly doubtful...

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Damn, wrote a whole response to Red Dawn and PFFT!!! Hate when that happens. Anyway nice analysis, but to shorten the last post that never was...

Dont think we will go to war over Israel, as we are too dependent on the Arabs. If Russia can continue to increase exports, then eventually we will no longer be the Saudis bitch. We put up with a lot of crap for oil. In any case, if Iraq or Iran or whoever attacks Israel, watch for the nukes. Israel has them and you better believe they would use them if threatened with obliteration. Now THAT's scary.

 

[ThePresence]

<<

<< As to what the best possible outcome is, obviously, 2 existing states side by side living peacefully. I doubt this will ever happen, as there are too many terrorist networks comitted to the destruction of Israel. >>



That's what we'd all hope for too...

Not to loose too much respect (if thats even possible ) in this discussion by asking such an obvious question - but why doesn't Isreal just pull out permanently and acknowledge the Palestinians' right to exist? I mean yeah you risk there still being the occasional yahoo on a suicide spree, but its gotta be better than this... Unless he somehow hopes that one day Isreal can occupy that land with Isrealis peacefully which I think is highly doubtful... >>



Israel had already pulled out permanently. They had given over the west bank and gaza strip to the Palestinians. Look where it got them. BTW, it's spelled ISRAEL not isreal.

 

[Red Dawn]

You'd think that our number one priority in the Scientific Community would be to discover a viable alternative source for fuel and energy.

 

[Martin]

<< You'd think that our number one priority in the Scientific Community would be to discover a viable alternative source for fuel and energy. If we weren't so dependent on Crude Oil ( not just us but the Industrialized nations) the Middle Eastern nations would be relegated to their true stature..insignificant Shiekdoms full of sand, angry men and not much else. Not only would it be good for us but it would be good for the vast majority of the Arab population as they would have to abandon their Superticious Beliefs and their 12th Century customs which has retarded their growth as a society. >>




Don't forget the environment too

And yes, alternative fuels are pretty high up on the list. There are a number of separate efforts to make fusion work. IIRC, current estimates say that within 15 years, fusion reactors will start to break even (ie, they will produce more energy than they require to operate), so I guess that in 25-30 years they may be commercially viable. Perhaps by then solar cells will have improved enough to be useful.....one can ony hope. It'll be a great day when that happens.

IMO, governments aren't placing enough emphasis on research, especially this type.

 

[ThePresence]

Wasn't there alot of money going towards researching "clean burning coal" technology? Whatever happened with that?

 

[Martin]

<< clean burning coal >>




Lol. That should go in my oxymoron thread

 

[morkinva]

<< You'd think that our number one priority in the Scientific Community would be to discover a viable alternative source for fuel and energy. If we weren't so dependent on Crude Oil ( not just us but the Industrialized nations) the Middle Eastern nations would be relegated to their true stature..insignificant Shiekdoms full of sand, angry men and not much else. Not only would it be good for us but it would be good for the vast majority of the Arab population as they would have to abandon their Superticious Beliefs and their 12th Century customs which has retarded their growth as a society. >>



Did you ever hear of the Bush Exploration Oil and Gas Company? You can forget about not being dependent on foreign oil for a long, LONG time.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Did you ever hear of the Bush Exploration Oil and Gas Company? You can forget about not being dependent on foreign oil for a long, LONG time >>

Actually this situation in the Middle East might bring a change of heart among those iun the Senate and House who were against it. Anywah that would just be a short term solution (time being relative) It's not like we can't do it. If history has proven anything it has shown that in time of andversity American "Know How" kicks into over drive. I guess we need to have an Oil Embargo levied against us to give us that kick we need to really find a solution.