UN condemns Israel...what else is new...

[ThePresence]

Because there were 2 suicide bombers yesterday, and opinion might have been shifting to be sympathetic to the Israelis, the UN felt compelled to denounce Israel yet again. What a puppet organization. Does anyone in thier right mind still respect it?
Link

 

[b0mbrman]

Idiots...Don't they feel silly doing something like that the day after a suicide bombing?

 

[ThePresence]

<< Idiots...Don't they feel silly doing something like that the day after a suicide bombing? >>



Apparently not.

 

[Nemesis77]

Basically they condemned Israel for two things: First, for theyr refusal to cooperate with the fact-finding missions. And second, for their attack on west-bank (may I remind you that there has been several reports of war-crimes being committed by IDF during that attack). I think both are valid reasons for condemnation.

 

[b0mbrman]

<< Basically they condemned Israel for two things: First, for theyr refusal to cooperate with the fact-finding missions. And second, for their attack on west-bank (may I remind you that there has been several reports of war-crimes being committed by IDF during that attack). I think both are valid reasons for condemnation. >>


Yes, but it seems a little untimely don't you think? Especially on the heels of another suicide bombing.

Perhaps if it included a comdemnation of Palestinian suicide bombers it would make more sense...What do they have against Israel anyhow?

 

[Texmaster]

<< Because there were 2 suicide bombers yesterday, and opinion might have been shifting to be sympathetic to the Israelis, the UN felt compelled to denounce Israel yet again. What a puppet organization. Does anyone in thier right mind still respect it?
Link >>



the words Hell and No come to mind.

The UN has moved from being a joke to being dispicable.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< Basically they condemned Israel for two things: First, for theyr refusal to cooperate with the fact-finding missions. And second, for their attack on west-bank (may I remind you that there has been several reports of war-crimes being committed by IDF during that attack). I think both are valid reasons for condemnation. >>


Yes, but it seems a little untimely don't you think? Especially on the heels of another suicide bombing. >>



I agree, the timing is a bit lame. But it could be that this has been in the works for the last several days. The fact that Israel suffered another terrorist-attack just before this condemnation is propably just a coincidence, and it doesn't change the reason of the condemnation. But I do think that UN should have delayed this for few days at least.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Basically they condemned Israel for two things: First, for theyr refusal to cooperate with the fact-finding missions. And second, for their attack on west-bank (may I remind you that there has been several reports of war-crimes being committed by IDF during that attack). I think both are valid reasons for condemnation. >>



There have been several accusations with no evidence just like the massacre talk.

If anything the UN should be apologizing for buying into the Palestinian BS.

The UN is proving once again it likes to jump to conlusions and ignore an entire side of the conlfict.

Why haven't they condemned Arafat's involvement in giving money to the terrorist organization or at the very least condemn his inaction with the sucide bombings?

 

[308nato]

The Un is proving once again that it needs to be freaking kicked out of here now.

 

[ThePresence]

nm

 

[Nemesis77]

<< There have been several accusations with no evidence just like the massacre talk. >>



Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch visited Jenin separately and they reported that they saw no evidence of a massacre. But they did find evidence suggesting other war-crimes being committed by IDF, including the use of human-shields. To me that seems like the most objective report we have had of the incident so far. Both organisations shoot down the palestinian claim of massacre.



<< The UN is proving once again it likes to jump to conlusions and ignore an entire side of the conlfict. >>



Many people are ignoring the palestinian side of the conflict, so the door swings boith ways.



<< Why haven't they condemned Arafat's involvement in giving money to the terrorist organization or at the very least condemn his inaction with the sucide bombings? >>



I have no idea, and I think they should do it.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch visited Jenin separately and they reported that they saw no evidence of a massacre. But they did find evidence suggesting other war-crimes being committed by IDF, including the use of human-shields. To me that seems like the most objective report we have had of the incident so far. Both organisations shoot down the palestinian claim of massacre. >>



You mean the two groups that have stayed silent on the political deaths in Seria dn the treatemnt of US prisnors in Iraq? I'd hardly call them objective. And where is this evidence? If you have a link to any article that mentions them I'll be you money they dont have a shred of proof.



<< Many people are ignoring the palestinian side of the conflict, so the door swings boith ways. >>



WHO? What country has come out and said the Palestinians are not suffering?

The UN in its vote shows its extreme bias against Israel. I can't beleive you don't see it.



<< I have no idea, and I think they should do it. >>



But thats important! If they want to show they are unbiased, lets see some of those resolutions

 

[Jimbo]

<< But they did find evidence suggesting other war-crimes being committed by IDF, including the use of human-shields. >>


Was that from the IDF soldiers using locals to open doors and check for boobie traps? Essentially, if the Palestinian refused to open a door they knew it was boobie trapped. As far as I know, no Palestinians were killed doing that. I'm sure it did save some IDF lives.
Maybe the IDF thought it was OK since they saw PLO gunmen doing the same thing with Palestinian civilians?

 

[Nemesis77]

<< You mean the two groups that have stayed silent on the political deaths in Seria dn the treatemnt of US prisnors in Iraq? I'd hardly call them objective. And where is this evidence? If you have a link to any article that mentions them I'll be you money they dont have a shred of proof. >>



Amnestys report on the incident can be found here

You can find alot of reports of varying subjects on their homepage, I'm sure they talk about Iraq and Syria there too.

The report of Human Rights Watch is Here. I have glanced over it, and it seems balanced, and it makes clear that there were quite alot of armed palestinians in the camp and that they had booby-trapped alot of buildings.



<< Many people are ignoring the palestinian side of the conflict, so the door swings boith ways. >>





<< WHO? What country has come out and said the Palestinians are not suffering? >>



That's not what I meant. What I meant was that many people around the world (and in this forum) seem to unconditionally support actions of Israel. Reports of war-crimes are ignored. Palestinians have done plenty of things that are wrong and downright stupid, but so has Israel.



<< The UN in its vote shows its extreme bias against Israel. I can't beleive you don't see it. >>



What I see is a nation-state using it's army in a way that goes against the laws of warfare. Their opposition does the same thing, but their actions are mostly (the official PA organisations have done stupid things too, however) done by terrorist-organisations that are not officially part of PA. Condeming actions of Hamas for example would be as meaningful as farting in the wind. Whereas condemning Israel, a modern and democratic nation, could achieve something. That said, I think they should condemn PA as well. And at least Amnesty and others spare no words flaming the PA alongside Israel.

 

[exp]

*big yawn* Oh, the UN is still around?? How quaint.

 

[Jimbo]

UN Security Council:
Resolutions against Israel: 97

UN General Assembly
Resolutions against Israel: 429

Requests:
The Arabs were "called upon" to "comply," "desist," "refrain" etc. 4 times. Israel was "demanded," "ordered" etc. to do General Assembly bidding 305 times.

Expressions:
The Assembly expressed its "concern," "grave concern," "anxiety" etc. about Israeli policies or actions 179 times. The General Assembly expressed itself in similar terms about Arab policies or actions 0 times.

Condemnations:
Israel was "condemned," "vigorously condemned," "strongly condemned," "deplored," "strongly deplored", "censured," "denounced" by the General Assembly 321 times. The Arabs were condemned 0 times.


I would say Israel would have to have their head exanmined to pay much attention to the U.N.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Was that from the IDF soldiers using locals to open doors and check for boobie traps? Essentially, if the Palestinian refused to open a door they knew it was boobie trapped. As far as I know, no Palestinians were killed doing that. I'm sure it did save some IDF lives.
Maybe the IDF thought it was OK since they saw PLO gunmen doing the same thing with Palestinian civilians? >>



Are you holding the IDF up to same standards as terrorist-organisations? Terrorists are scum of the earth, IDF is a highly-trained and professional army, I would expect more from them than I could expect from Hamas or Jihad.

As to the reports of using human-shields...

Human Rights Watch's Report

And I remember reading of cases where IDF used foreign nationals (Italians if I recall correctly) as humans shields as well, but I can't find a link right now

 

[Texmaster]

<< Amnestys report on the incident can be found here

You can find alot of reports of varying subjects on their homepage, I'm sure they talk about Iraq and Syria there too. >>



The report of Human Rights Watch is Here. I have glanced over it, and it seems balanced, and it makes clear that there were quite alot of armed palestinians in the camp and that they had booby-trapped alot of buildings.[/i] >>



Thanks for the links. As always you are well informed.

One thing I noticed was a lot of accusation but no real evidence presented.

The presence of armed Palestinian militants inside Jenin refugee camp, and the preparations made by those armed Palestinian militants in anticipation of the IDF incursion, does not detract from the IDF's obligation under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid harm to civilians. Israel also has a legal duty to ensure that its attacks on legitimate military targets did not cause disproportionate harm to civilians. Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes.

They claim of obligations to protect civilians but there is no mention of what Israel did or what steps they took to aviod civilian casualities.

And most importantly, neither of the papers note in any outrage in the booby trapping by Palestinian militants that very well caused civilian casualities.

Less than 60 people died, and of that we do not know of how many were combantants. To call this a massacre is irresponsible but to also claim of war crimes with so few casualities and aviod the Palestinian contribution is IMO just as irresponsible.


As far as Syeria, they might have mentioned it but they have never done an investigation in country. And I do know for a fact that neither of these groups ever issued a public press statement condemning the treatment of US prisnors in Iraq.



<< That's not what I meant. What I meant was that many people around the world (and in this forum) seem to unconditionally support actions of Israel. Reports of war-crimes are ignored. Palestinians have done plenty of things that are wrong and downright stupid, but so has Israel. >>



I don't think they are ignored but the sources are questionable because of their past history to jump to conclusions. A miliary incursion into a civilian area will result in civilian casualities. How many of the 56 werer actually peacful civilians we will never know. But this number is hardly large enough to raise these kind of accusations.

If anything, the Israelis should be thanked they warned people hours ahead to clear the buildings and should be thanks for not simply carpet bombing the area. Both of these actions show Israel is not the blood thirsty nation these two articles portray them as being and both actions are not mentioned by either. That is why I am personally skeptical.



<< What I see is a nation-state using it's army in a way that goes against the laws of warfare. Their opposition does the same thing, but their actions are mostly (the official PA organisations have done stupid things too, however) done by terrorist-organisations that are not officially part of PA. >>



But PAID by the PA many times from International funds yet there is no action taken byt he UN to look into this.



<< [Condeming actions of Hamas for example would be as meaningful as farting in the wind. Whereas condemning Israel, a modern and democratic nation, could achieve something. That said, I think they should condemn PA as well. And at least Amnesty and others spare no words flaming the PA alongside Israel. >>



Very well said and I understand your POV. Great debating you once again Nemesis

 

[Texmaster]

<< UN Security Council:
Resolutions against Israel: 97

UN General Assembly
Resolutions against Israel: 429

Requests:
The Arabs were "called upon" to "comply," "desist," "refrain" etc. 4 times. Israel was "demanded," "ordered" etc. to do General Assembly bidding 305 times.

Expressions:
The Assembly expressed its "concern," "grave concern," "anxiety" etc. about Israeli policies or actions 179 times. The General Assembly expressed itself in similar terms about Arab policies or actions 0 times.

Condemnations:
Israel was "condemned," "vigorously condemned," "strongly condemned," "deplored," "strongly deplored", "censured," "denounced" by the General Assembly 321 times. The Arabs were condemned 0 times.


I would say Israel would have to have their head exanmined to pay much attention to the U.N. >>




WOW Could it be more damaging?

 

[Nemesis77]

<< UN Security Council:
Resolutions against Israel: 97 >>



Read my reply to Texmaster. I mention my theory regarding this thing (of course, my theory could be wrong).

Has anyone ever written to UN and asked the (politely!) why their resolutions/actions seem to onesided in this conflict? I think that would be an interesting thing to do. I know I would like to know.

 

[Adul]

i read condoms for some reason.

 

[b0mbrman]

<<

<< UN Security Council:
Resolutions against Israel: 97 >>



Read my reply to Texmaster. I mention my theory regarding this thing (of course, my theory could be wrong).

Has anyone ever written to UN and asked the (politely!) why their resolutions/actions seem to onesided in this conflict? I think that would be an interesting thing to do. I know I would like to know. >>


Interesting...I'll do it this second if someone knows of an email address

 

[Jimbo]

<< And I remember reading of cases where IDF used foreign nationals (Italians if I recall correctly) as humans shields as well, but I can't find a link right now >>


If that were true, can you imagine how bad the west would completely freak? I don't think you will be able to find a reliable source for that. But if you do, please post the link.

The Palestinians that the IDF were using were locals, that previously refused to leave (despite the announcements over loudspeakers prior to IDF arrival in force) or were captured during the fighting. I would say those are the people that know where the bombs are.

 

[Pacfanweb]

<< UN Security Council:
Resolutions against Israel: 97

UN General Assembly
<<Resolutions against Israel: 429

Requests:
The Arabs were "called upon" to "comply," "desist," "refrain" etc. 4 times. Israel was "demanded," "ordered" etc. to do General Assembly bidding 305 times.

Expressions:
The Assembly expressed its "concern," "grave concern," "anxiety" etc. about Israeli policies or actions 179 times. The General Assembly expressed itself in similar terms about Arab policies or actions 0 times.

Condemnations:
Israel was "condemned," "vigorously condemned," "strongly condemned," "deplored," "strongly deplored", "censured," "denounced" by the General Assembly 321 times. The Arabs were condemned 0 times.>>

I'd say that pretty much is case closed. You can't argue with a straight face that Israel has been at fault that many times and the other side is not. Even the Wussopeans would have to agree.

 

[Jimbo]

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