UN assembly votes in favor of PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD!

[GreenMeters]

You cannot seriously believe that the world community, including the U.S. at that point, would look at such a conflict and say "Oh, well, it's one nation attacking another, have at it!" Such asymmetrical warfare, with its appalling and indefensible crimes against humanity blazoned on every media outlet around the world, would lose the Israeli's their cash and arms supplier, and their veto in the U.N. security council.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Do you think Hamas would randomly fire into cities if they had US-made, GPS guided missiles?

No, they would likely specifically target high population density areas in cities instead. Hamas isn't fighting the Israeli military, they are fighting Israelis and, for them, killing a civilian is every bit as good as killing a soldier. That's why some people call them terrorists.

 

[Lemon law]

Gotta love the Hayabusa assertion that Israel will forever get away with raping Palestinian rights?

It worked so well for Apartheid South Africa for far longer than Israel has gotten away with the same. Only fools think the world will never change, Because the UN vote of today is evidence that the world has indeed changed. As the can can't be kicked down the road much longer.

 

[Lemon law]

No, they would likely specifically target high population density areas in cities instead. Hamas isn't fighting the Israeli military, they are fighting Israelis and, for them, killing a civilian is every bit as good as killing a soldier. That's why some people call them terrorists.

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Gotta love the TLC assertion that Palestinian are nothing but illegitimate terrorist, when the fact is and remains, that when the Brits controlled the Palestinian mandate, it was the Israelis like Began and Goldie Mier that were the bomb throwing terrorists that bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel.

Nor should I trouble the TLC vision when the USA engaged in our revolutionary war against British domination in 1776, our founding fathers engaged in the same terrorists tactics against our then British overlords.

 

[DCal430]

I do not see how the 1967 boundry will work with the Westbank and Gaza being separated like they are. Will they be two different countries?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

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Gotta love the TLC assertion that Palestinian are nothing but illegitimate terrorist, when the fact is and remains, that when the Brits controlled the Palestinian mandate, it was the Israelis like Began and Goldie Mier that were the bomb throwing terrorists that bombed the British headquarters at the King David Hotel.

Nor should I trouble the TLC vision when the USA engaged in our revolutionary war against British domination in 1776, our founding fathers engaged in the same terrorists tactics against our then British overlords.

RIF. I didn't claim Palestinians were or are terrorists. My statement was specifically about Hamas. In fact, my belief is that if it weren't for Hamas this problem could be resolved or would have been resolved already. With Hamas around it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You cannot seriously believe that the world community, including the U.S. at that point, would look at such a conflict and say "Oh, well, it's one nation attacking another, have at it!" Such asymmetrical warfare, with its appalling and indefensible crimes against humanity blazoned on every media outlet around the world, would lose the Israeli's their cash and arms supplier, and their veto in the U.N. security council.

So if Palestine attacks Israel then Israel has to play dead? Hardly. There is no fair. I suggest you see how the world reacted to 9/11. Sorry, but if Hamas attacks under those circumstances then they are screwed.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Gotta love the Hayabusa assertion that Israel will forever get away with raping Palestinian rights?

It worked so well for Apartheid South Africa for far longer than Israel has gotten away with the same. Only fools think the world will never change, Because the UN vote of today is evidence that the world has indeed changed. As the can can't be kicked down the road much longer.

Thanks for not being able to read again.

 

[Throckmorton]

RIF. I didn't claim Palestinians were or are terrorists. My statement was specifically about Hamas. In fact, my belief is that if it weren't for Hamas this problem could be resolved or would have been resolved already. With Hamas around it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

There is no resolution. Imagine if some outside entity took all Texans' land and gave it back to the Mexicans, because they were here first. How do you think Texans would react? Do you think anything would ever satisfy them? Let's say all the Texans were relegated to living on Galveston Island. Do you think recognizing the state of Galveston would make them happy?

And yet, it would also be ridiculous to accuse the Texans of obstructing peace because they want to be recognized as a nation.

 

[Screech]

There is no resolution. Imagine if some outside entity took all Native American's land and gave it back to the Americans, because they wanted it. How do you think Native Americans would react? Do you think anything would ever satisfy them? Let's say all the Native Americans were relegated to living in Indian Reservations. Do you think recognizing the Indian Reservations would make them happy?

And yet, it would also be ridiculous to accuse the Native Americans of obstructing peace because they want to be recognized as a nation.

Modified, obviously. The funny thing is, nobody these days is saying America should be given back to the native americans. Why not? The length of time between when we stole their land and when israel was created is not overly disparate (ie, happened before the lives of most people who are alive now, but recently enough to be remembered from past generations).

edit: couple changes

 

[DominionSeraph]

that's completely untrue, Israel does NOT want peace. It's NOT in their interests to have peace, from the perspective of the Israelis, why on earth would they give land and concessions to another people when they can just slowly take back that land over the next few decades through settlements???

So, by your reckoning, Israel never gave back the Sinai, eh? Because why on earth would they do that?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

There is no resolution. Imagine if some outside entity took all Texans' land and gave it back to the Mexicans, because they were here first. How do you think Texans would react? Do you think anything would ever satisfy them? Let's say all the Texans were relegated to living on Galveston Island. Do you think recognizing the state of Galveston would make them happy?

And yet, it would also be ridiculous to accuse the Texans of obstructing peace because they want to be recognized as a nation.

Imagine if an area encompassing Texas chose the wrong side in a World War? But you already know we don't have to imagine that scenario because WWI is history.

Then imagine if Texas attacked Mexico, and lost. Then attacked and lost again in more scenarios. Would you REALLY be all torn up over Texas claiming that the Mexicans stole their land? I think not.

 

[JEDIYoda]

u guys are all ridiculous arguing like the Palestinians ever had any choice. ALL the cards were ALWAYS in Israel's hand for over 30 years! hahahahahaa yeah right...rofl..... It has, hands down, the most powerful military in the middle east with some of the most advanced military technology in the world (thanks to the USA), and if it wanted peace it would've had it 30 years ago. You really do not know what you are babbling about.... Always the biggest issue was compensation or the right of return for Palestinians that left the country in 1948 & 1967, sorry Charlie you don`t attack another nation or side with those nations that do and then cry for the return of something you gave up by being on the losing side.... Israel refuses to compensate them even though they have more than enough money to do so (and heck the money was never the issue, it was a land issue, there's no way the tiny state can support the return of so many people without Israel becoming overwhelmingly Arab AGAIN).

They're up against a terrorist group of THEIR own creation, THEY inadvertently created the extremist group Hamas after ridiculing and making the PLO/Fatah an abject failure infront of the average Palestinian. awwww boohoo....They thought defeating the PLO would make the Palestinians accept whatever terms the Jews wanted, but no it created the rise of a more extremist group in the form of Hamas. U sow what u reap, and quite frankly they could care less cause Hamas's rockets are a nuisance, but hardly anything threatening. You really do not know anything do you??? 10-15 deaths a year from Hamas? how many Israeli's die from car accidents or food poisoning a year??? yea, exactly. They're like a mosquito, annoying but hardly anything to worry about.

As long as they can build their settlements and hopefully slowly keep eroding away at the 1948 proposed Palestinian state then they're happy.

I lobe your revisionist history...hahahahaha

 

[EagleKeeper]

Maybe the Israelis should just round 'em up and gas 'em huh? It'd be more humane than leaving them to die of thirst in the Sinai, huh?

The Sinai has people living in it; The terrain is very similar to the original Palestine.

The Palestinians will have to adjust their standard of living - no more handouts to survive; make it on their own.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Gaza city is a strip of land about 10 miles by 25 miles in size. There are 1.7 million people there.

It's not like there's a whole ton of space to run out into the open and launch rockets from.

Do you think Hamas would randomly fire into cities if they had US-made, GPS guided missiles?

Gaza Map

There is open spaces areas scatterred throughout Gaza if one uses the street map linked.

The bigger question is why do they need to shoot off the rockets in the first place. They know that eventually it draws retaliation and gets the local civilians killed.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Does this mean that if Hamas fires more rockets or sends out suicide bombers into Israel that it would be tantamount to one nation declaring war on another, giving Israel the green light to exterminate Hamas by any means necessary?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Does this mean that if Hamas fires more rockets or sends out suicide bombers into Israel that it would be tantamount to one nation declaring war on another, giving Israel the green light to exterminate Hamas by any means necessary?

1) It will fully demonstrate that Hamas can not keep it's word. This last treaty stated that Hamas is responsible for anything; ie. NOTHING WILL COME OUT OF GAZA

2) It will fully legitimize Israel voiding any of the concessions that she made.
(targeted assassination. freer crossing, easing of restrictions, etc.)

3) Should shelling continue; Israel is fully justified in ramping up the air campaign and sending in ground forces to eliminate Hamas as a militant organization.

And it means that the Palestinians will go no further in their quest for statehood,

They have already busted the Oslo accords by their actions in the UN.

Unless the Hamas group is disavowed, there wlil be no further movement.
And then you have the Palestinian elections coming up to determine if the illegitimate leadership of Abbas is legitimate of not.

 

[bononos]

There is no resolution. Imagine if some outside entity took all Texans' land and gave it back to the Mexicans, because they were here first. How do you think Texans would react? Do you think anything would ever satisfy them? Let's say all the Texans were relegated to living on Galveston Island. Do you think recognizing the state of Galveston would make them happy?

And yet, it would also be ridiculous to accuse the Texans of obstructing peace because they want to be recognized as a nation.

The difference is that Israel was created in 1947 and slave owning Texas became part of US almost a hundred years earlier. Do you think that attitudes towards greedy land grabs by stronger more powerful countries have changed by then. And the Palestinians didn't commit genocide to be where they were at in 1947.

 

[Darwin333]

Does this mean that when Palestine launches rockets at Israel that Israel can now officially declare war on the country of Palestine and actually go to war (not this precision strike against Hamas leaders stuff, real war)?

 

[Darwin333]

There is no resolution. Imagine if some outside entity took all Texans' land and gave it back to the Mexicans, because they were here first. How do you think Texans would react? Do you think anything would ever satisfy them? Let's say all the Texans were relegated to living on Galveston Island. Do you think recognizing the state of Galveston would make them happy?

And yet, it would also be ridiculous to accuse the Texans of obstructing peace because they want to be recognized as a nation.

When you go to war being "conquered" is always a threat if you lose. They lost.

 

[Lemon law]

The Sinai has people living in it; The terrain is very similar to the original Palestine.

The Palestinians will have to adjust their standard of living - no more handouts to survive; make it on their own.

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In terms of the latter statement, its Israel that makes the Palestinian economy untenable. As Israel embargoes the Palestinian economy, embargoes their supplies of water and raw materials, and then embargoes their exports too. And then in terms of Palestinian taxation, Israel controls that too. Get Israel out of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem and the Palestinian economy can be more than self sufficient.

But with Israel in control, Israel makes sure the Palestinian economy will fail.

 

[Greenman]

We somewhat all miss the point, the Palestinians under Fatah have won an enormous victory in the UN vote, and if we look at the raw vote. 138 yeas and only 9 noes. We are talking about a ratio of 15.33 to 1.

Doubly as impressive since Israel and the USA have been lobbying the world for over a year and the US and Israel just got dope slapped by the UN General assembly.

As there are now four remaining issues left hanging. (1) What about the bad Palestinians of Hamas who still maintain, violence against Israel is the only way to achieve their legitimate rights? As that was, until today, somewhat a moot question, as Palestinian violence or non-violence did nothing to solve the the long standing 64 year Israeli rape of Palestinian rights. (2) Now the question becomes, if Abbas and non-violence does not achieve result, does the world want to legitimatize Hamas violence as the only remaining proper solution? (3) Will anyone in the world buy the Israeli threat to punish Abbas, because like Oliver Twist, he had the unmitigated gall to ask for more gruel? (4) As we can also note, Obama made a last minute appeal to Abbas, to with draw his UN appeal, on the grounds that Obama would finally come out on the Palestinian side come 2013. But given Obama's track record of of being nothing but a Bozo Netanyuhu poodle, with the background of having all the integrity and backbone of a chocolate eclair, any Obama promises are worthless today.

But after that, what will this UN vote be worth going forward? That is the Howard Cosell rest of the story remaining to be seen. Why get involved in pissing contests on P&N when the P&N forum will not be the deciders.

Wouldn't you consider the country's that abstained as no votes?

 

[Lemon law]

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this forum regarding land by conquest. Prior to the formation of the UN, land by conquest had some validity, after the formation of the UN, all member states abide by the UN doctrine that land by conquest is illegitimate.

As the only justification Israel ever had to be in Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan heights are based on a TEMPORARY military occupations if we can consider 45 years as temporary.

But in terms of Palestinian terrorism against Israel as an occupier, its a UN recognized right for an occupied people to use force to oppose their occupiers, but if Israel retreats to their legitimate 1967 borders, then it would be illegal for Palestinians to use against Israel itself. But what muddies that question, is the Palestinian right to Return to land Israel stole in 1948.

 

[Lemon law]

Greenman asks, " Wouldn't you consider the country's that abstained as no votes? "

As I ask why not consider them yes votes instead.

But still an abstention vote does mean a partial yes, simply because the US pressured everyone in the world to vote no for over a year. As normally the rest of the world will follow the US lead, but on the Palestinian Statehood issue, that is a can kicked too far down the road to continue to ignore. And in MHO, the only reason the USA still favors Israel is due to the pro-Israeli lobby in the USA called AIPAC. And since no other nation will permit such a corrosive lobby, other nations see far more clearly how dangerous to world peace it is in terms of letting Israel continue to run illegal military occupations. As over 70% of all nations voted yes, only 4.7% of all UN nations voted no, and under 23% of all nations abstained for fear of offending the USA as they were equally fearful of offending the 71.5% set of UN nations who are willing to stand up and be counted all saying its long past time to end the illegal Israeli occupations of lands Israel can't ever own.

 

[Screech]

@ LL above: I agree in spirit, but legally, before the 67 war, jordan owned the west bank and egypt the gaza strip. I agree that land taken by warfare is not legitimate legally, but egypt doesn't want the gaza strip back and jordan doesn't want the west bank back (basically nobody wants the palestinians), so as far as the law is concerned, if the owners of the land before the 67 war don't want it back, it belongs to israel. In reality I agree the west bank and gaza should be the palestinian state but they will never get any part of jerusalem nor should they.

I always find it fascinating that people somehow seem to forget that the arabs controlled what would have otherwise been a palestinian state and prevented its formation and this was apparently "OK" but now it is israel's turn and it is the end of the world.