Umm Is this Man crazy ?

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Ummm There is this thing called the separation of powers? our entire government is based on it. According to this principle the job of enforcing laws is left to the President. Which means he chooses who works for him as prosecutors and who does not.

When congress gets involved in a situation like this and tries to tell the President who he can and can?t have working for him they are over stepping their grounds. Which is why their could be a court fight over this, but that is highly unlikely. The Democrats will most likely realize that they will not win a fight like this and take what he offers. But you never know?

Think of it this way? how would congress react if Bush started calling them to the White House to explain how they voted on certain bills. Or congress called members of the Supreme Court to testify on how they decided certain cases?

Congress does have the power to approve, or disapprove of many Presidential appointments, but once they are approved they have no say in how they do their job.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Ummm There is this thing called the separation of powers? our entire government is based on it. According to this principle the job of enforcing laws is left to the President. Which means he chooses who works for him as prosecutors and who does not.

When congress gets involved in a situation like this and tries to tell the President who he can and can?t have working for him they are over stepping their grounds. Which is why their could be a court fight over this, but that is highly unlikely. The Democrats will most likely realize that they will not win a fight like this and take what he offers. But you never know?

Think of it this way? how would congress react if Bush started calling them to the White House to explain how they voted on certain bills. Or congress called members of the Supreme Court to testify on how they decided certain cases?

Congress does have the power to approve, or disapprove of many Presidential appointments, but once they are approved they have no say in how they do their job.

Political or not, this story goes beyond the pale and at the heart of our judicial system. How can we accuse other nations of what we ourselves are doing? Forget human rights, this is about American citizens and our judicial process. The President is not King, therefore the interests of the people should override any legal cover he has here. This is simply too important.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
Political or not, this story goes beyond the pale and at the heart of our judicial system. How can we accuse other nations of what we ourselves are doing? Forget human rights, this is about American citizens and our judicial process. The President is not King, therefore the interests of the people should override any legal cover he has here. This is simply too important.
The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Well for a first post MaxisOne---you are off to a good start and with a good link. Asking questions is the easy part---predicting the future is the hard part.

But its March madness after all and the battle lines between the congress are just being drawn---will we know which side is the fool by April 1? I for one predict a far slower trainwreck. When the cat was away the mice did play---now the cat is back and there is hell to pay will probably shape the future agenda and be a re run of Nixon.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Every President, more or less, has fired the USAs appointed by his predecessor, so your raising Clinton as an example is misleading. The issue here is that President Bush fired 8 USAs, for political reasons, during his term, and installed politically-selected interim appointments. This is not the norm.
 

MaxisOne

Senior member
May 14, 2004
727
7
81
Prof John .. no need for the lecture I already have degrees in poli Sci and Law... But thanks anyways for the attempt

Im quite aware that these people serve at the pleasure of the president (with customary senate confirmation). As a matter of fact ... it is expected that resignations are offered when a new administration takes office.

You bringing up Clinton really does nothing to help your rebuttal of the issue. .. Let me remind you of the issue ... The Man is willing to go to court over this. I find this quite interesting as it seems to me that obviously this administration thinks its still operating pre mid term election days.

Previous administrations have served up their advisors ... and this issue can go away if the deeds in question were clear and transparent ... so whats the problem.. Why the resistance? Does he forget he has to go back to these very people for money at some later stage ?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Narmer
Political or not, this story goes beyond the pale and at the heart of our judicial system. How can we accuse other nations of what we ourselves are doing? Forget human rights, this is about American citizens and our judicial process. The President is not King, therefore the interests of the people should override any legal cover he has here. This is simply too important.
The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

No, I was referring to Gitmo and all the allegations of terror. IMHO, those are peons compared to the abuse of power this President is doing. There is nothing wrong with firing all the DAs so long as it is impartial. In other words, it doesn't matter that they are getting fired so long as THEY ALL get fired and it is done at a politically impartial time, like during the first month of a Presidency. Firing 8 specific DAs because of their (lack of ) prosecution of politically charged cases smacks of interference. That is a big no no.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Can you ever quit being a forum troll non Prof John---the white house talking point you mention---namely--As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only "mistake Bush" seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Its usual for incoming Presidents to appoint a new team of attorneys when they come in---and its something that Republican and Democratic often do---and your trollih slip is showing when you implied only Clinton did that. The fact is that firing US attorneys mid-term is almost unprecedented---and now released documents almost totally prove its politically motivated.

But on the bright side you acknowledge that the firings were a GWB mistake---and not due to Gonzales or some other sleezy lesser character. There may be hope for you yet non Prof John. I shall quote you in future for noting where the buck and the blame should squarely rest.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
"We will not go along with a partisan fishing expedition aimed at honorable public servants," he said. "It will be regrettable if they choose to head down the partisan road of issuing subpoenas and demanding show trials when I have agreed to make key White House officials and documents available."
Curiously, those 'honorable' public servants cannot make up their minds about 'why' the prosecutors were fired. We usually call that lying. Bush is scared. It won't be a show trial. It will be real. The political hacks of the Bush Regime will either tell the truth of their depravity (Bush before country) or refuse to answer. So much for returning 'honor and dignity to the White House.'

He added that federal prosecutors work for him and it is natural to consider replacing them.
Uh . . . unless Bush is cutting 6-figure checks from his BoA account . . . these people work for the American public as impartial litigators of the federal criminal code.

"My choice is to make sure that I safeguard the ability for presidents to get good decisions," he said. "If the staff of a president operated in constant fear of being hauled before various committees to discuss internal deliberations, the president would not receive candid advice and the American people would be ill-served."
Uh, why would this be internal deliberations of the White House? I thought the White House wasn't involved and this was just a personnel matter of removing poor performers?

"Such interviews would be private and conducted without the need for an oath, transcript, subsequent testimony or the subsequent issuance of subpoenas," Fielding said in a letter to the chairmen
What exactly is the rationale for NOT writing down what people say? It's part of the public record that the prosecutors were fired for inadequate performance so why not make it part of the public record the 'discussions' about the inadequate performance?

U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald was ranked among prosecutors who had "not distinguished themselves" on a Justice Department chart sent to the White House in March 2005
---
The ranking placed Fitzgerald below "strong U.S. Attorneys . . . who exhibited loyalty" to the administration but above "weak U.S. Attorneys who . . . chafed against Administration initiatives, etc.," according to Justice documents.
How do these people (from the turd at the top on down) take oath's of office, cash checks from the federal Treasury, and then pretty much act like they are a fiefdom under GWBowel.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
126
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Every President, more or less, has fired the USAs appointed by his predecessor, so your raising Clinton as an example is misleading. The issue here is that President Bush fired 8 USAs, for political reasons, during his term, and installed politically-selected interim appointments. This is not the norm.

Yes but its perfectly legal.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
126
"Uh . . . unless Bush is cutting 6-figure checks from his BoA account . . . these people work for the American public as impartial litigators of the federal criminal code"

Uh no they are not. They are employees of the Executive Branch of the Federal Government which the President and his Deputies have final say in.

If they were elected you could claim that.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Ummm There is this thing called the separation of powers? our entire government is based on it. According to this principle the job of enforcing laws is left to the President. Which means he chooses who works for him as prosecutors and who does not.

When congress gets involved in a situation like this and tries to tell the President who he can and can?t have working for him they are over stepping their grounds. Which is why their could be a court fight over this, but that is highly unlikely. The Democrats will most likely realize that they will not win a fight like this and take what he offers. But you never know?

Think of it this way? how would congress react if Bush started calling them to the White House to explain how they voted on certain bills. Or congress called members of the Supreme Court to testify on how they decided certain cases?

Congress does have the power to approve, or disapprove of many Presidential appointments, but once they are approved they have no say in how they do their job.


Originally posted by: ProfJohn
As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.





wrong.


 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Every President, more or less, has fired the USAs appointed by his predecessor, so your raising Clinton as an example is misleading. The issue here is that President Bush fired 8 USAs, for political reasons, during his term, and installed politically-selected interim appointments. This is not the norm.

Yes but its perfectly legal.

Debatable, and you are going to have a ringside seat to that debate. And we all get to watch this Administration openly ACT as criminals by trying to circumvent and hide. Some of the winguts here have constantly referred back to Clinton and how he used to do this or that...well, now its my turn to use a Clinton reference. Clinton showed us that perjury is a no no and now THIS congress gets to see if there is basis for a perjury claim against the AG. If the white house wishes to oppose (and GWB is perfectly in his rights to) it will only be yet another political score for the democratic controlled congress.

I love to watch this White House in reactionary mode.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Ummm There is this thing called the separation of powers? our entire government is based on it. According to this principle the job of enforcing laws is left to the President. Which means he chooses who works for him as prosecutors and who does not.

When congress gets involved in a situation like this and tries to tell the President who he can and can?t have working for him they are over stepping their grounds. Which is why their could be a court fight over this, but that is highly unlikely. The Democrats will most likely realize that they will not win a fight like this and take what he offers. But you never know?

Think of it this way? how would congress react if Bush started calling them to the White House to explain how they voted on certain bills. Or congress called members of the Supreme Court to testify on how they decided certain cases?

Congress does have the power to approve, or disapprove of many Presidential appointments, but once they are approved they have no say in how they do their job.

It's unfortunate we don't ban for partisan hackery.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Responding to the spin:

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Ummm There is this thing called the separation of powers?

The president is bound by the law. Seperation of powers doesn't mean he's king. You exaggerate what it includes.

According to this principle the job of enforcing laws is left to the President. Which means he chooses who works for him as prosecutors and who does not.

When congress gets involved in a situation like this and tries to tell the President who he can and can?t have working for him they are over stepping their grounds.[q/]

He does so within the rules set up by Congress. When he violates the rules, Congress holds him accountable. He runs the administration; Congress has oversight of his actions.

Notice how Congress says whether the appointees needed Senate approval or not. They say other things, too, about the rules he has to follow.

If he's violating the integrity of the system by politicizing it, Congress investigates.

Think of it this way? how would congress react if Bush started calling them to the White House to explain how they voted on certain bills. Or congress called members of the Supreme Court to testify on how they decided certain cases?

Bad analogy and logic. You can't fit a legitimate oversight action into the same group with violations of the seperation of powers just because you list them in a group.

You can't prove lizards are a mammal by asking whether cats and dogs are.

Congress does have the power to approve, or disapprove of many Presidential appointments, but once they are approved they have no say in how they do their job.

You appear not to have heard of "oversight". The Congress doesn't issue troop movement orders, and the president doesn't hold committee hearings overseeing Congress.

The president orders the executive branch to do things, and the Congress oversees what he does, and takes legislative action as they see fit.

Congress is the people's representative to oversee that the Administration is acting within the law - up to and including the power to remove the president if he's not.

The doctrine of executive privilege has limits. Congress has the power to subpoena. The burden of proof is on the president to show why he has the right to deny information.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Every President, more or less, has fired the USAs appointed by his predecessor, so your raising Clinton as an example is misleading. The issue here is that President Bush fired 8 USAs, for political reasons, during his term, and installed politically-selected interim appointments. This is not the norm.

Yes but its perfectly legal.

It might be "Legal", but what is the purpose of these Prosecutors in the Legal sense? Is it to simply be an arm of Power of the President or is it to uphold the Constitution of the US?

Seems to me their purpose would be to uphold the Constitution and not be Presidential Hitmen.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
2,443
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Narmer
Political or not, this story goes beyond the pale and at the heart of our judicial system. How can we accuse other nations of what we ourselves are doing? Forget human rights, this is about American citizens and our judicial process. The President is not King, therefore the interests of the people should override any legal cover he has here. This is simply too important.
The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Oh and the lying about the reason they were fired lets not forget.

Bush is the King. How dare Anyone question him. He is the president royal. He is the Decider. Unilateral executive.

BullSh!t

Bush is a man of privledge. This is not the first time they have pulled this crap. They dont ever want to talk to anyone under oath.

Remeber the 9/11 commission. Bush finally agreed to talk to them but it had to be in a dark room, only for 90 minutes, they could get a copy of the questions before hand, they would not be under oath, and cheney would be present.



WHat do these B!tches always have to hide

They Serve at the Pleasure of the American People
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
2,607
0
76
Originally posted by: smashp

Bush is the King. How dare Anyone question him. He is the president royal. He is the Decider. Unilateral executive.

BullSh!t

WHat do these B!tches always have to hide

They Serve at the Pleasure of the American People

"I have a MAN-DATE DAMMIT! 50.00000000000001% of the people decided for me so that makes me supreme ruler!

(and next time you speak of me without bowing you will be BEHEADED!)"

 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
Eventually the Democrats are going to have to go to war with Bush Co. to restore integrity and honesty to this Whitehouse.

Its time for politicians to examine their actions, consider the consequences, and have the threat of personal responsibilty hanging over their conscience.

This seems like a good place to start.
 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
3,074
0
76
Its about time Bush stood up to these partisan hacks who make every non issue into a huge one. I thought it was his best speach in a long long time.

What ever happened to this new great congress being "bipartisan" and "working WITH the president"

 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Originally posted by: Corbett
Its about time Bush stood up to these partisan hacks who make every non issue into a huge one. I thought it was his best speach in a long long time.
You realize multiple Republican House members along with a Republican Senator have also called for Alberto Gonzales' resignation over this matter?

Its really preposterous to claim only "partisan hacks" are making a big deal of this, unless you're including Republican "partisan hacks" which obviously leads to the question of why they would do such a thing unless this was a serious matter.
 

galperi1

Senior member
Oct 18, 2001
523
0
0
Originally posted by: Corbett
Its about time Bush stood up to these partisan hacks who make every non issue into a huge one. I thought it was his best speach in a long long time.

What ever happened to this new great congress being "bipartisan" and "working WITH the president"

You are confusing "Working WITH the president" under a republican congress vs. a democratic one.

In the former, no oversight or accountability was every required for ANY action by Bush. In the latter, we are finally getting the oversight and debate required to function as a democracy.

I also find it humorous that a lot of conservatives on this board trotted out the "If you have nothing to hide" mantra regarding the warrentless wire-tapping. Funny how they don't want to apply that to this situation. Somewhat hypocritical if you ask me

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

The firing of 8? Federal DAs is now a human rights issue?

As was mentioned before, Bill Clinton got rid of EVERY Federal DA when he took over, the only mistake Bush seems to have made is in the timing of his decision.

Every President, more or less, has fired the USAs appointed by his predecessor, so your raising Clinton as an example is misleading. The issue here is that President Bush fired 8 USAs, for political reasons, during his term, and installed politically-selected interim appointments. This is not the norm.

May not be the norm but within his right to do so. This whole story is nothing but a media frenzy. Apparently hurricane season didnt provide enough attention drawing stories to last the winter.

 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Yeah I watched his little press conference yesterday and he was all in "Bring 'em on mode".

Federal prosecutors shouldn't be given a "Bushie loyalty test", AGAG lied when he promised to have all prosecutors approved by the Senate. It is a lie that these people were under-performing - the guy who was fired supposedly for not prosecuting election fraud was in fact so adept at investigating election fraud that he was put in charge of training others in how to do it. He saw no evidence of fraud and therefore didn't prosecute.

This is just another Brownie situation across the board, competent people are being replaced with hacks who have sworn fealty to Bush and Rove. Bush completely ruined FEMA and several other Federal organizations and this is his attempt to ruin the judiciary.

This is a part of an extremely transparent pattern of behavior, many of the problems we now face in Iraq are due to incompetent people put in positions of power in the CPA at the beginning of the war, simply because they were loyal to Bush.

Bush's offer is a complete joke, they can't even make a transcript of the "interviews", if he had nothing to hide he would allow them to testify.