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Uh oh Transmission

PhoKingGuy

PhoKingGuy

Diamond Member
Friends 2002 Accord 4cyl is shifting hard out of first into second when its cold (audible thunk heard according to him). Its been replaced once already under warranty so it (SHOULD) be ok, I told him to get the fluid changed asap and see if it does anything. Any other ideas other than glass transmission failure?
 
Definitely not a torque converter issue as this would either show up in all lower gears as slip, or only in the highest gears as a malfunction in the lockup clutch.

If it's waiting too long to shift (i.e. holding first) or shifting too hard when cold, it's possible that there's an issue with the 1-2 solenoid. I know that some versions of Ford's AOD-EW (also named 4R70W) were known for just such an issue. Haven't heard of it from Hondas, but the symptoms are exactly the same.

ZV
 
Zenmervolt said:
Definitely not a torque converter issue as this would either show up in all lower gears as slip, or only in the highest gears as a malfunction in the lockup clutch.

If it's waiting too long to shift (i.e. holding first) or shifting too hard when cold, it's possible that there's an issue with the 1-2 solenoid. I know that some versions of Ford's AOD-EW (also named 4R70W) were known for just such an issue. Haven't heard of it from Hondas, but the symptoms are exactly the same.

ZV
Click to expand...
I came here to post this.
 
I don't own a Honda but I see enough stuff floating around online to at least know those years are fairly prone to failure because well Honda ATX transmissions are pretty much like glass. Honda's weak point has always been their automatics if nothing else.
 
SSSnail said:
Read the effin page. BTW, I had two accords, same symptoms, guess what fixed it?
Click to expand...

OP Symptom: Hard shift from 1st to 2nd.

Symptom on page you linked: Engine revs but car won't move.

If you think those are the same symptoms, you've got problems. Revving but not moving does indeed indicate that the torque converter is slipping. Shifting hard from 1st into 2nd does not.

ZV
 
SSSnail said:
Read the whole site; spend some times, click around the links.
Click to expand...

I did. Lots of 3rd and 4th-hand information from owners with little to no actual information about what was wrong other than "needed a new transmission" or, "AAMCO said it needed a new transmission", or "mechanic said it needed a new transmission". No diagnosis for what was specifically wrong in the transmission.

I say again, the symptoms that the OP describes are not caused by a torque converter malfunction. A malfunctioning torque converter manifests as slip (engine revs but car doesn't move) or shudder (car "shakes" or "shudders" during steady-state operation while in gear). Neither of those two symptoms are listed by the OP.

Since you obviously don't know anything about cars, I'll make this simple: You're wrong. The OP's friend may indeed need a new transmission or an expensive rebuild (the money is in the labor and to get at shift solenoids or clutch packs is expensive), but it's not a torque converter issue that is causing the symptoms described.

ZV
 
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Blaz blah, you really like to see your text don't you?

Anyways, I HAD the same exact problems. The issue is that most of the time people don't describe the problem properly, or fail to mention a few things.

TWO OF MY CARS in the past, had the exact problems. The jerkiness and hard shifts came in different severity depends on how hard the gas pedal was depressed. And it WAS THE TORQUE CONVERTERS THAT FAILED. Why don't you ask the OP to go ask his "friend" to ease on the gas all the way up to speed, and see if anything changes on the jerkiness or hard shifts. I don't really like to type much, so I won't go on and on about how torque converters work.

Have a nice day.
 
Last edited:
SSSnail said:
Blaz blah, you really like to see your text don't you?

Anyways, I HAD the same exact problems. The issue is that most of the time people don't describe the problem properly, or fail to mention a few things.

TWO OF MY CARS in the past, had the exact problems. The jerkiness and hard shifts came in different severity depends on how hard the gas pedal was depressed. And it WAS THE TORQUE CONVERTERS THAT FAILED. Why don't you ask the OP to go ask his "friend" to ease on the gas all the way up to speed, and see if anything changes on the jerkiness or hard shifts. I don't really like to type much, so I won't go on and on about how torque converters work.

Have a nice day.
Click to expand...

Sorry, you're still wrong. Either the mechanic simplified the explanation to something he thought you'd understand instead of telling you the actual problem or he saw a Honda transmission from those years acting up and simply never diagnosed it fully because he felt that it wasn't necessary.

Anyway, you're wrong and I'm done feeding your ignorant trolling.

ZV
 
Oh, ok. I'm wrong. But you're absolutely right, because the "mechanic" that replaced the torque converter wasn't my friend, and I'm simply trolling because you know, I'm wrong. And the cars didn't work after the torque converter were replaced, magically something else just snapped in place.

Hey OP, why don't you drive your friend's car, and instead of smashing the gas pedal, ease up on it and let me know what the difference in jerkiness, or shift points would be. Vary your gas input and notice exactly which gear it shifts, do this several times and let me know what changes.

SN (I want to feel important too, so I'm gonna signature-fy my post).
 
SSSnail said:
Hey OP, why don't you drive your friend's car, and instead of smashing the gas pedal, ease up on it and let me know what the difference in jerkiness, or shift points would be. Vary your gas input and notice exactly which gear it shifts, do this several times and let me know what changes.
Click to expand...

Shifts will be softer because the solenoids which control the shifts are set up so that they shift less firmly under light loads. The TC does not control shift firmness.

ZV
 
Wow, ok so I got to drive the car in question yesterday.

Its kinda what both of you are describing, but only for a very small amount of time when the transmission is cold (only after sitting overnight). Lets say I shift into reverse and let off the brake pedal, theres a soft thunk and it starts moving. When I shift into drive and go forward it accelerates normally in 1st gear, then does a pretty big thunk into second. 3rd to 4th gear is fine. All of these symptoms disappear after a few minutes of driving.

I'm so used to a DSG transmission now that I may be exaggerating the thunks between gears because its still pretty lumpy between shifts (friend said its always been like that), but when its cold its definitely a lot more pronounced. He still hasn't gotten the fluid changed yet.

If the trans is on the way out theres a possibility he might just sell the car off as it would be the second time its needed to be replaced.
 
Accords in that gen commonly have that problem, which most poeple replaced the whole transmission to solve.

I had the chance to drive a coworkers a couple months back.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 1-2 solenoid because the car doesn't slip once it engages 2nd, so it can't be the clutch packs, but it does experience a ton of shift flare (delay), and when it does finally shift, it's harsh.

Having said that, SSSnail, regardless of what you were told or found on the internet, you/the links are wrong and that's that. Stop posting on the subject until you understand automatic transmissions better.
 
New symptom, apparently when its cold after he stops at a light. Itll have a lurch forward after the car has stopped for a few seconds.

I'm thinking SSSnail is right after all.
 
PhoKingGuy said:
New symptom, apparently when its cold after he stops at a light. Itll have a lurch forward after the car has stopped for a few seconds.

I'm thinking SSSnail is right after all.
Click to expand...

How would a TC issue cause a lurch? I know of no failure mode for a TC that could possibly cause a lurch when at a standstill.

Failure modes for a TC can be one of a few things:

The stator clutch can seize, which will definitely be noticeable in severely increased fuel consumption, or the stator clutch can fail completely causing the stator to freewheel in which case the TC will be almost entirely unable to transmit power which would keep the car from moving much, if at all. Finally, there could be mechanical issues with the vanes of the pump or turbine, but this would manifest itself in a manner similar to a stator clutch seizure where fuel economy would take a very noticeable nosedive.

None of those would cause lurching or hard shifting. What it sounds like is that the car is falling out of gear at a stop or has some other internal damage, but the symptoms you've described are not directly attributable to a broken TC.

There is a very remote possibility that a failed TC has been overheating for long enough that the fluid is damaged so much that it began damaging solenoid valves and/or clutchpacks, but that would require the TC operating in one of the above failure modes for a very long time without your friend noticing, which seems very unlikely.

ZV
 
Update, took it to my friend's honda shop today.

ZV calls it right as usual, 1-2 shift solenoid is fried, mechanic was surprised it still worked. New transmission is needed as well as new mounts, timing belt, water pump, rear brakes and 4 new tires. Friend is probably going to sell the car as is ASAP and get something else.
 
PhoKingGuy said:
Update, took it to my friend's honda shop today.

ZV calls it right as usual, 1-2 shift solenoid is fried, mechanic was surprised it still worked. New transmission is needed as well as new mounts, timing belt, water pump, rear brakes and 4 new tires. Friend is probably going to sell the car as is ASAP and get something else.
Click to expand...

how many miles were on the car?
why buy an auto honda, notorious for unreliable autos, when they make the best manuals in the industry?
 
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