uh oh! NKorea rejects as 'laughable' US offer of multilateral security guarantee
- Thread starter Ferocious
- Start date
why are we there? How many Korean POS cars are onthe roads today? WE are a big importer and exporter to the South. Regardless of how much the south spends, Seoul is only 40 miles or so from the DMZ and is within range of N.korea Plentiful artilery.
Plus you know that whole proximity to Japan.
How much do you like DVDs, ps2s, and HDTV?
I think as a techno geek you would understand.
Plus you know that whole proximity to Japan.
How much do you like DVDs, ps2s, and HDTV?
I think as a techno geek you would understand.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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More hypocritical, self righteous bullsh!t from Pyongyang, what a surprise. It always makes me laugh to hear them throw the word 'hostile' around, like the US has been sending test missiles over NK or tried to make NK jets land in SK airspace. I feel horrible for the poor, brainwashed working class of NK - the upper crust manufacturing nuclear tensions in order to perpetuate their mealticket, it's just sickening. But then again I would expect nothing less from a government which engages in kidnaping and drug trafficking.
I think all aid to them should stop. Let things get bad enough so that inevitably the people realize the goverment needs to be changed. Just think, without 'Dear General' NK could actually rise to a level of prosperity and freedom like that enjoyed by SK. No more mass starvation, no more concentration camps, and possibly a unified country.
I think all aid to them should stop. Let things get bad enough so that inevitably the people realize the goverment needs to be changed. Just think, without 'Dear General' NK could actually rise to a level of prosperity and freedom like that enjoyed by SK. No more mass starvation, no more concentration camps, and possibly a unified country.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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I understand what you are saying, but some people are literally eating grass to stay alive. What are sanctions going to do? They didnt hurt Saddam and certainly arent going to bother Kim. He eats first. It is easy to say they should revolt, but what chance would you have in an uprising against the US? It's worse in NK. The army isnt going to revolt, because being in the army gets them and their families fed. If a majority of the military did not rise up all at once, it would fail.
MAYBE SK operatives could eventually find a weakness in his security, and have him assasinated, but I wouldnt bet the farm on that one. It might be the only option, as much as I dislike it. I am concerned about the safety of millions inside NK and out.
I have given this a great deal of thought, and I believe Kim just wants to taunt, not strike, but this has become a game to him. He is obviously not stable.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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They've eaten worse than that - chicken sh!t and freshly buried corpses from what I've read. I realize that the absence of aid seems harsh, especially as how it affects the bottom of the populace and works it's way up, but I think anything to drive home the point of the NK leadership being the fulcrum of the problem is the way to go. Sooner or later they will figure out how much better things could be without a psychopath at the wheel, and action in the form of an uprising doesn't necessarily mean it has to come from the civilian population. I hope one day, a high up general who has a 'bird's eye view' of things (not relying soley on the propaga...I mean Yonhap news) acts out of compassion towards his countrymen and puts a bullet in the back of Kim Il's demented head. Even if it were a military coup, it would still open up possibilities for drastic political and social change in NK, and potentially remedy the NK tactic of perpetuating military tensions.
Yeah, emphasis on the MAYBE. Judging how the country operates, I'd say a NK defectee would be the only shot, and even then the odds are almost hopeless.
the usa is there to protect the SK
if war start, without usa help, NK would walk over Sk easy.
NK may have $$ problem to maintain the high tech weapon, but NK has one of the best army personnel(1.4 million)
In the Korea war, SK outnumber the NK, but NK beating up the SK army like baby drinking milk.
if war start, without usa help, NK would walk over Sk easy.
NK may have $$ problem to maintain the high tech weapon, but NK has one of the best army personnel(1.4 million)
In the Korea war, SK outnumber the NK, but NK beating up the SK army like baby drinking milk.
china pushed us back for awhile, then we pushed them back to the 38thP.
this war almost went nuclear. here is an excerpt from the Encarta article on it.
"The U.S. government seriously considered using nuclear weapons in Korea in early 1951. The immediate threat was the USSR?s deployment of 13 air divisions to East Asia, including 200 bombers that could strike not just Korea but also American bases in Japan; and China?s deployment of massive new forces near the Korean border. On March 10, 1951, MacArthur asked Truman for a "D-Day atomic capability"?the ability to launch a massive nuclear assault. Truman complied, ordering the Air Force to refurbish the atomic bomb loading pits at Okinawa, Japan, which were used during World War II. Atomic bombs were then carried to Okinawa unassembled and put together at the base, lacking only the essential nuclear cores. On April 5, the Joint Chiefs of Staff ordered immediate atomic retaliation against Soviet and Chinese bases in Manchuria if large numbers of new troops entered the war. Also on April 5, Gordon Dean, chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), arranged for the transfer of nine nuclear capsules held by the AEC in the United States to the Air Force bomb group that would carry the weapons. Truman approved the transfer as well as orders outlining their use the next day"
The Korean War was one of the most destructive of the 20th century. Perhaps as many as 4 million Koreans died throughout the peninsula, two-thirds of them civilians. (This compares, for example, with the 2.3 million Japanese who died in World War II.) China lost up to 1 million soldiers, and the United States suffered 36,934 dead and 103,284 wounded. Other UN nations suffered 3322 dead and 11,949 wounded. Economic and social damage to the Korea Peninsula was incalculable, especially in the North, where three years of bombing left hardly a modern building standing.
No. The current tactic played by ROK (SK Troops) and US Marines is to withdraw from the border, away from the artillery fire and move the base of operations south, away from the range of NK's long range artillery. In the south, they would play the game of guerilla and buy as much time as possible for reinforcements to come. There is still the question of Seoul. It would be impossible to evacuate all the residents without at least weeks of time in advance.
The prevalent theory about a NK non-WMD tactic is that they would begin massive shelling of Seoul (along with shelling of DMZ bases with range of their other artillery), followed up by a few more days of shelling just along the perimeter. Then the bulk of the NK army would roll by. They arent the most modern, but they have enough Soviet know how (up until its collapse) and raw technical skills (notice how they can build an atomic weapon from scratch and make an ICBM from an IBM) to become a serious obstacle for even the US Army.
Even GWBush is smart enough to realize that you simply cannot invade NK without SK and parts of Japan being flattened. And just in case anyone is wondering, NK's artillery barrage can sustain approximately 500,000 shells/hour on Seoul alone (not those dinky arse mortar shells either, I'm talking big artillery shells). Even with poor accuracy, it doesnt take a genius to figure out how long it would take to flatten a city. Some of those artillery are fixed placement and US military estimates are that it would take months or close to a year of airstrikes to take enough of them out (without using nuclear weapons) to nullify the threat. Which brings to the topic of approximately 1,000 medium range SCUD type missiles capable of hitting Japan. If NK plays the WMD game, each of those can be outfitted with a nuclear, biological, or chemical warhead. And there is no doubt that NK possesses all three.
A lot of people b!tch at SK for sucking up to NK and trying to be on their good side. But if you have more artillery firepower than all of World War II combined pointing at you, ready to fire within minutes of the order, I would try and be on their good side too (well actually I'd move).
Unsubstantiated rumors. Its easy to start those when you get no news from a certain area.
Sources:
http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=28609695&m=6370967685
http://cns.miis.edu/research/korea/dprkmil.htm
it would not be the cakewalk for NK some think. first of they will not just "walk" into SK. massive numbers of troops have to be massed before they go anywhere, and if they started doing that they run a high risk of a pre-emptive strike, which has already been demonstrated to them the US is quite willing to do. the knowledge that a country can and wil preemptively strike is a great deterrant to an aggressor.
NK has massive amounts of artillery, another thing that has bene demonstrated is that fixed artillery positions do not last long against cruise missiles and massive ordnance deployment from b-2' and b-52's based in guam. the first thing that would have to be done is not an indiscriminate shelling of a city, but instead to clear the massive minefield that is in place all along the DMZ to permit troop movement across the border.
NK has massive amounts of artillery, another thing that has bene demonstrated is that fixed artillery positions do not last long against cruise missiles and massive ordnance deployment from b-2' and b-52's based in guam. the first thing that would have to be done is not an indiscriminate shelling of a city, but instead to clear the massive minefield that is in place all along the DMZ to permit troop movement across the border.
I'll dismiss the WND, because that has been proven to be misleading as a whole, evidence wise.
All accounts are 3rd (or several magnitudes of third person commentary). None of them are first person, probably because NK doesnt like foreign visitors. They are all unsubstantiated. A few pictures here and there do nothing, I'm sorry. There are starving children (or aneroxic) in the United States that can easily look like that, but it doesnt mean the population as a whole are like that.
While I'm confident that there is definitely a food problem, I doubt that it is as extensive as what the western media likes to put it as.
The only accounts I would accept as solid evidence is if a ranking Chinese diplomat stationed in North Korea makes a statement.
The problem is that the US can't really strike preemptively the way it did Iraq. The only thing it could do is air strikes. In order for NK to invade it would have to amass troops, but the US would also have to do that, and it would take them far, far longer.
And no one is saying it will be a cakewalk, they are saying that initially it will be a cakewalk. I think the widely held view is the correct one: that NK could quickly take over a large part of SK and be eventually driven back and defeated when other countries send troops.
The current SK army and US army already stationed there could fight extensively with NK. Thats not a problem. (Granted there would be a HIGH number of deaths.)
The problem is that theres nothing SK/US can do protect MASSIVE civilian casualties. Evacuate? Er... like more then 50% of the population lives in Seoul alone. Where would they go anyways? NK has the ability to attack any part of SK as well as Japan. Not mentioning that all of Asia would go into complete turmoil, which would have a drastic effect here as well as all over the world. Losing the production of top world economies is definitely not good. This would not be a war like Iraq, or any other since WWII. It would require a total war on SK's part, and possibly even Japan and USA, reshaping the world map and power scheme entirely.
I fear for the future. I mean, seriously what can be done? Can't concede to their demands, their word cannot be trusted at all. Already broke the nuclear non proliferation treaty, and heck they even jipped Sadaam. Bomb them? Read above.
Only can hope that nothing happens and drag this stuff out as long as possible, until reforms from within every so slowly happen as it doing in China.
The problem is that theres nothing SK/US can do protect MASSIVE civilian casualties. Evacuate? Er... like more then 50% of the population lives in Seoul alone. Where would they go anyways? NK has the ability to attack any part of SK as well as Japan. Not mentioning that all of Asia would go into complete turmoil, which would have a drastic effect here as well as all over the world. Losing the production of top world economies is definitely not good. This would not be a war like Iraq, or any other since WWII. It would require a total war on SK's part, and possibly even Japan and USA, reshaping the world map and power scheme entirely.
I fear for the future. I mean, seriously what can be done? Can't concede to their demands, their word cannot be trusted at all. Already broke the nuclear non proliferation treaty, and heck they even jipped Sadaam. Bomb them? Read above.
Only can hope that nothing happens and drag this stuff out as long as possible, until reforms from within every so slowly happen as it doing in China.
it does not take a jet flying at 350-400 mph long to get from guam to korea. troops on the move are very vulerable, especially infantry and invasion force of say 500,000 to 700,000 would most likely be blown to bits before they even cross the border. it would take them at day at least to use artillery to clear a way through the immense minefield.
the US already has well over 30,000 troops in korea, which while not a great number compared to the total NK has the US still will have the advantage of some very serious defenses. it will take more than an artillery barrage to take out in any short amount of time..unless they nuke it..then tell their troops if they get across fast enough the radiation wont hurt them...
it could easily go either way, and yes a new korean war would probobly play out much the same after the inital stages (barring a pre-emptive strike by the US when the troops are massing), and be as bloody if not more than the first.
also remmeber, N korean troops fought with the chinese during the chinese revolution, communist china in a large owes it's existance to N korea. china remembers this and that is why we had to kill a million of them in the first go around and threaten to nuke them if they sent anymore.
NK could easily level SK before the US could react. After the US reacts NK gets beat back, but the damage would have already been done. Another thing is, they can also hit Japan.
something interesting that most of you don't know
red china is famous of people sea style, which has only been use in korean war
red china never use people sea tatic in war against blue china (democrate party), or against USSR, or against vietment.
why???
100% of the army that sent to korea is mean to die
if usa don't kill them, red china will.
red china doesn't want any of them to come back alive, therefore they invent people sea tatic, to fully ensure that they will all be kill.
reason why you ask.
the army that is deploy to korea are the blue china army that surrander, red china fears that when blue china regroup at Taiwan, and strike back. Those army will switch side in a heart beat.
This is brilliant, to get your enemy to hurt your enemy, while your enemy is doing you a favorite by killing your enemy.
as what the red china think of Korea war, they are killing USA, while having USA kill the enemy of red china.
so is like this
red china vs usa plus blue china force
red china loss nothing, all casuality are because usa fighting it's ally force, while maintain the goal of keeping NK alive.
with what? you seem to be overstating a bit. thier biggest artillery pieces dont even come near the 16inch guns the uss missouri and new jersey have, and the range on them is 28 miles or so. the biggest artilelry the NK's ahve is the 240mm MRL, and it ranges at 9000 meters firing a 130 kg projectile of which 34 kg is payload. all this artillery must be moved to forward positions(except for fixed emplacements) with increased supplies adn suport personell going with them. tis takes time, and is highly visible.
the big threat is missiles, but they dont carry enough payload to "level" SK unless they go unconventional right off the bat. and even then it would tke more than a nuke or 2 to do it. and what do you think will happen to NK soon after?
chuckieland, i dont see the connection of china sending a force to NK resulting in the US fighting taiwan(R.O.C) maybe i am just not understanding, could you explain more?
North Korea does not have the strength to "level" SK before the US could react. We have the capability to react within minutes to any form of attack from the North. You were right when you said they could also hit Japan. However in the event they did launch an all out attack against the South, and Japan, they do not have the resources to sustain 3 fronts at once, the 3rd being from Chinese forces to the North. Your also forgetting the US. Carrier fleet in the area which has quick strike capabilities.
The 240mm MRL rockets are capable of ranges from 60-70km with a 90kg payload. As of 1999 estimates say there may be greater than 10,000 of these MRL's. Also, it only takes 44 seconds for the MRL to move from its firing position to its underground facility for protection against strikes after it has fired. All in all, dispite these statistics, our target acquisition systems would detect these sites easily and we have the overwhelming capability to destroy them before a possible 2nd or 3rd launch. There are also the Scud B and C versions, which have a longer range of 340-550km with a payload of 500-1000kg, and N.K has a estimated 1300 (give or take a few hundred) of both of these missiles.
Rand
Global Security (these are older estimates of range, quantity and strength)
Your right in the nuke aspect. The world would unite against NK and their end would be soon to follow
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
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This coming from someone who links to another forum thread as somehow being conclusive evidence? What was that about listening to 3rd hand accounts (or worse)??? While I find your cynicism appropriate given the subject, I think you're going a little too far with it. You're correct though, we do have aneroxic and starving children here in the States - a country with a surplus of food (how sad!) - so what does it tell you when NK has an estimated food deficiency of 50%-60%? Not taking things at face value is all well and good, but sooner or later you need to connect the dots...
Also, the link I mentioned earlier, that article contained first hand accounts from NK defectors, I guess I'll just have to assume you didn't bother to look for it.
the force that china sent to fight the korea war are the force of R.O.C(taiwan) that surrander
they surrander because majority for R.O.C force has retrieve to Taiwan already, and they have no reinforcement or supply or place to stand (thanks for the usa backstaple R.O.C)
so in fear of the surrander army not been royality to red china, but don't want to dirty their hand by kill so many people, the red china sent this army to fight Korea war. and using the new invent "people sea" tatic to make sure USA will do the unask favorite for them, meanwhile hurting the usa army, and help NK at the same time.
the ROC(taiwan) are so counting on the surrander army to switch side when they strike back too, but before the korea war start, the 7th fleet are in middle of taiwan strait and PROTECTING the red china.
so Red China really owe their existance to the usa.
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