Uh Oh: India considers war with Pakistan

[Hoeboy]

my prediction: india hits pakistan, musharrif will look to the U.S. for help since they helped us in afghanistan. and of course we'll deny and of course we would be considered to have betray yet another country. and you got it, we got ourselves into more trouble.

 

[xyyz]

<<

<< first of all... the US never attacked anyone directly... whereas the government of India constantly commits HR attrocities directly against the Kashmiri people. >>


And this justifies pakistans support( money, training camps etc) ? >>



obviously you haven't been reading the news... Musharaf froze the assets of the two groups in question as well as closed down several of their camps. he's beginning to crack down on these groups, but the indian government will never be statisfied.

 

[xyyz]

<< wha really sucks is the fact that general musharraf has always favored the islamic terrorist groups that have operated
in kashmir. he has emboldened them to assume the lead in their fight against supposed indian occupation using the
same tactics of attrition that have been employed by a number of other terrorist groups in south asia and the middle
east.

he has refused on many occasions in the past to label them 'terrorists', drawing a sharp and unequivocal distinction
between those forces operating in and out of kashmir and jammu, and those who were lending covert support to
the pashtun forces in afghanistan. one had the impramitur of the pakistani state, the other did not. one received
direct funding, the other was cast off. now he is being forced to renege on his pledges to these freedom fighters
at the behest of the united states, whose economic support and reestablished friendship he sorely needs to
keep. >>



you can't make these statements without proof...

where are your sources?

the people of kashmir were promised a plescibite by the UN which was agreed upon by neru at the time... but now India constantly reneges this promise by stating the BS line "kashmir is has always been part of India" which is a load of crock.. .because Kashmir was always an independant stately provence.

it's also a matter of semantics... only recently has the US added the two groups operating in kashmir on the terrorist group list... before then Musharaf called the rebellion in Kashmir freedom fighters... now he's cracking down on them.

musharaf, has already secured close to 10-billion in aid... and he isn't one that favors neoptism and corruption... so there's a good chance he'll do something positive with that cash.

 

[xyyz]

<< "<< first of all... the US never attacked anyone directly... whereas the government of India constantly commits HR attrocities directly against the Kashmiri people. >>"

The U.S.A. never attacked anyone directly??? Hmmm..... THEN WHAT DO YOU CALL OVER A MILLION DEAD NATIVE AMERICAN VICTIMS!!!! America has participtated in some of the most heinous acts against man kind that the world has ever seen, and it all started in the 1600's. Yea, I know that it was a long time ago, but America still needs to be held accountable!!!

We still don't even have a Native American day

:|:|:|:|:|:|:| >>



while I agree with you wholeheartedly here... this was a while back... when most of the US was overwhelmingly white-european and led by "manifest destiny" ... now times have changed and so have the people.

 

[oslama]

oh, xyyz, you forgot to mention the attack on pentagon which is a GOVERNMENT agency. That attack is equal to the attack on the indian parliament.


btw, the third plane was headed towards washington DC. problaly into the whitehouse or the capitol hill.

 

[Maverick]

xyz, don't pull out crap about Kashmir always being an independent state. Kashmir, Pakistan, and hell even Afghanistan were all part of India at one time.

maybe the Indian army commits attrocities in Kashmir...but Pakistan is and always has been the agressor. Muslims are tolerated in India as citizens....Hindus live in fear in Pakistan. Trust me on this, one of my friends in high school was from a Pakistani Hindu family. His mother even has a muslim name to hide her true faith. Pakistan has always used religious hatred as a weapon against India and has always been the agressor.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

If war were to break out, and god hope it doesnt, we all know who would win. India would destroy Pakistan and blow them away. END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[MGMorden]

<< "<< first of all... the US never attacked anyone directly... whereas the government of India constantly commits HR attrocities directly against the Kashmiri people. >>"

The U.S.A. never attacked anyone directly??? Hmmm..... THEN WHAT DO YOU CALL OVER A MILLION DEAD NATIVE AMERICAN VICTIMS!!!! America has participtated in some of the most heinous acts against man kind that the world has ever seen, and it all started in the 1600's. Yea, I know that it was a long time ago, but America still needs to be held accountable!!!

We still don't even have a Native American day

:|:|:|:|:|:|:| >>



"America" by no means needs to be held accountable. If your dad robs a liquor store and kills the clerk but the cops shoot him while leaving the store, should you be held for murder? Of course not. We are not to be held responsible for the sins of our parents (or in this case very distant grandparents). Such a state of mind is just as old and backwards as that which caused these crimes in the first place.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Elfenix, you are sorely mistaken.

India developed nuclear capabilities on their own. It was Pakistan who bought Chinese Nukes. >>




Truth be told no one really developed nuclear weapons alone.

Russia stole from the US, China stole from everyone, North Korea bought and stole, South Africa stole, Israel bought and stole, and the European coutries bought and traded with the US.

Heck even the US more or less stole from German scientists. (I said more or less so dont go nuts I know some came over to the US voluntarily)

But more or less, everyone had help.

 

[syzygy]

sorry for the late reply.


<< musharaf, has already secured close to 10-billion in aid... and he isn't one that favors neoptism and corruption... so there's a
good chance he'll do something positive with that cash. >>


i agree. unlike the previous regime, whom he ousted in large part because of their corrupt ways, i have trust that he is a more
honorable and progressive man who would not dip to being a hypocrite. he's also a military strongman who can force through
reforms and sweep clean the endemic corruption in ways that an elected leader could not. but i think there is where his merits
end.


<< you can't make these statements without proof... where are your sources? >>


in part . . . you. later on in the same post you allude to the following:


<< only recently has the US added the two groups operating in kashmir on the terrorist group list... before then Musharaf called the
rebellion in Kashmir freedom fighters... now he's cracking down on them. >>


ofcourse, now, that the u.s. has intervened he is cracking down. why not before ? pakistan had drawn a distinction between their
meddling in afghanistan and those same efforts in kashmir. one was considered a 'freedom fighter', as you mentioned, who were
based in pakistan and crossed the controlled border with impunity (with the regime's blessing), while the other was a genie they
lost control of and needed dire help to destroy.

bulletin of atomic scientist's story


<< Pakistani Chief Executive Pervez Musharraf's ambivalent attitude toward fundamentalism is nowhere more evident than
in his government's relationship with the mujahideen. The Pakistani government denies supplying material support to the
jihadi groups, a claim challenged by the U.S. State Department in its most recent annual report on terrorism.

Musharraf calls the mujahideen "freedom fighters," not terrorists, castigating the West for confusing jihad with terrorism.
But there are problems with this line of argument. To begin with, incursions by the mujahideen are not lessening India's
determination to hold on to Kashmir. On the contrary, they have hardened India's views toward Pakistan. Indian Prime
Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee has repeatedly stressed his refusal to hold talks with Musharraf until Pakistan curbs the
violence of the mujahideen. >>





<< More important, Pakistani officials admit privately that Pakistan needs the mujahideen to persuade the Indian
government that a military solution to the Kashmiri conflict is impossible. >>


n.y. times story - education of a holy warrior


<< General Musharraf himself calls the struggle against India a jihad, and the English-language newspapers in Pakistan
use the language of jihad when talking about the fight: one otherwise dry-as-bones news story I read stated that seven
"mujahedeen" had "embraced shahadat" in a fight against the Indian Army. Shahadat is martyrdom, and "embraced
shahadat" means that they were killed >>




<< The jihad in Kashmir is of great political help to General Musharraf. In a fractious country like Pakistan, the jihad in
Kashmir unifies people the way no other issue does. And so the military junta has given wide berth to the jihad groups
training on Pakistani soil. >>



and the worse yet is the following quote from musharraf himself:


<< He also defended the activities of groups the State Department has labeled terrorist, particularly the Harkat ul-mujahedeen
of Fazlur Rahman Khalil, which is waging a violent jihad against India; it is believed to be behind the hijacking last December of
an Indian airliner. The State Department has labeled the HUM, as it is known, a terrorist organization. The group keeps training
bases in Afghanistan, but Khalil, its leader, has an office in Rawalpindi, not far from General Musharraf's house, and he moves
freely through Pakistan. "These people are not terrorists," General Musharraf said. "They are fighting a jihad." >>

 

[xyyz]

<< xyz, don't pull out crap about Kashmir always being an independent state. Kashmir, Pakistan, and hell even Afghanistan were all part of India at one time.

maybe the Indian army commits attrocities in Kashmir...but Pakistan is and always has been the agressor. Muslims are tolerated in India as citizens....Hindus live in fear in Pakistan. Trust me on this, one of my friends in high school was from a Pakistani Hindu family. His mother even has a muslim name to hide her true faith. Pakistan has always used religious hatred as a weapon against India and has always been the agressor. >>



oh please.... you don't know what the F- yer talking about. first of all... I don't think that Afghanistan was part of India... I could be wrong... but I don't recall anything about the Afghani partition.

you know... this BS about "I know someone who lived in blah" is useless... it doesn't lend any more credence to what you have to say. I can cite several examples of Sikhs and Hindus and even Christians that are neighbors of people we know in Pakistan that live in complete harmony within the country... and I can also tell you of several muslims families that left India for Pakistan because there was hostility towards them based on their Islamic faith.

so this a pretty sh*tty argument.

if you don't think that India was the agressor... I suggest you do some history research and investigate what India did in the provences of Hyderbad and Junghda (sp?) when the muslim rulers of those provences decided to join Pakistan durring the time of the partition.

 

[xyyz]

<< oh, xyyz, you forgot to mention the attack on pentagon which is a GOVERNMENT agency. That attack is equal to the attack on the indian parliament.


btw, the third plane was headed towards washington DC. problaly into the whitehouse or the capitol hill. >>



yes but the US government was NOT directly involved in a conflict with anyone here... we were attacked because of our alliances and certain policies... not because we waged a war on some country that UBL ruled.

The US has done alot more for Muslims than those lame-ass Arabs.

The government of India is itself commiting HR atrocities against the Kashmiris.

 

[xyyz]

<< If war were to break out, and god hope it doesnt, we all know who would win. India would destroy Pakistan and blow them away. END OF DISCUSSION. >>



you indians are so friggin backwards in your thinking... you are so certain that India will cruise over Pakistan and all the Pakistan army will be doing is yelling thakbirs and making turban jokes.

you are sorely mistaken here... India will win... but they will take significant losses... and as a result... I predict there will be more unrest in those Indian provences that want independance.

 

[zzzz]

<< I can also tell you of several muslims families that left India for Pakistan because there was hostility towards them based on their Islamic faith. >>


AFAIK there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan. Why are they in India if there is hostility towards them? may be they know which place is better. Maybe they don't want to live under military rule.

 

[xyyz]

<<

<< I can also tell you of several muslims families that left India for Pakistan because there was hostility towards them based on their Islamic faith. >>


AFAIK there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan. Why are they in India if there is hostility towards them? may be they know which place is better. Maybe they don't want to live under military rule. >>



do you know what a muhajir is?

why are there still hindus and sikhs in pakistan? if they hate military rule so much why don't they go over?

it's not as simple as you like to think.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Heck even the US more or less stole from German scientists. >>



That reminds me of an old joke (from fifties or sixties I believe):

An american and soviet spaceship meet while orbiting Earth. They greet each other... In german.

Both countries built their missile/space-programs using german know-how and german experts.

 

[eLiu]

Way I see it...if they blow each other to smithereens, then we rid the world of a bunch of idiots. If they come to the realization that this continuous fighting is utterly moronic, then the world benefits from the peace. Either way, it's a win/win situation for us. (Though fallout may be a problem for the rest of us)

 

[Mani]

EbonyExperience said:


<< Its time for the US to lay the smack down on both those backwards countries. >>


You know what amazes me about this ridiculously ignorant and bigotted statement is that it comes from someone who claims they are trying to fight bigotry and ignorance displayed towards gays. I guess it's fine as long as it's not directed at you eh?


But the next one from eLiu really takes the cake:


<< Way I see it...if they blow each other to smithereens, then we rid the world of a bunch of idiots. If they come to the realization that this continuous fighting is utterly moronic, then the world benefits from the peace. Either way, it's a win/win situation for us. (Though fallout may be a problem for the rest of us) >>


So I guess by the same logic the US should have pussied out too then. And that if the US and Afghanistan had somehow annihilated each other we would be "rid a bunch of idiots". Pakistan has funded terrorism in kashmir continuously. They also openly sponsor terrorist groups that operate in India. India is sick and tired of taking their crap and are responding because PEACE HAS BEEN GIVEN A CHANCE. It amazes me that people call others idiots when they don't even have the basic comprehension to understand a situation fully before running their mouths.