Uggh the pictures of the syrian refugee kids washing up on the beach is heartbreaking

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Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
PingviN and IndyColtsFan, you guys are simply talking about the ONE kid and his background. The problem is more systemic than this one kid. It's what the one kid symbolizes -- all the other innocent children (and adults) in that part of the world that are being forced into such measures.

And in regards to the one kid, I don't give a crap what his personal background is. All I know is that there is a dead kid washed up on a beach and it's depressing.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
PingviN and IndyColtsFan, you guys are simply talking about the ONE kid and his background. The problem is more systemic than this one kid. It's what the one kid symbolizes -- all the other innocent children (and adults) in that part of the world that are being forced into such measures.

And in regards to the one kid, I don't give a crap what his personal background is. All I know is that there is a dead kid washed up on a beach and it's depressing.

I agree, but I'm not sure what can be done at this stage. The cynical side of me also wonders if ISIS could be using this mayhem and smuggling terrorist cells into Western Europe during this exodus. There are a lot of things to be concerned with here and I agree with PingVin's view that we should send resources to Turkey, Lebanon, and other nations in the region and have the refugees stay there.
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
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PingviN and IndyColtsFan, you guys are simply talking about the ONE kid and his background. The problem is more systemic than this one kid. It's what the one kid symbolizes -- all the other innocent children (and adults) in that part of the world that are being forced into such measures.

If you needed this photo to wake up, you're pathetic and a shitty human being.

And in regards to the one kid, I don't give a crap what his personal background is. All I know is that there is a dead kid washed up on a beach and it's depressing.

There are children dying of starvation, diarrhea, malaria, getting hacked to death, left in dumpsters to die because they happened to be female. That is depressing too and it happens hundreds or thousands of times every single day, all year around. Don't see that making the headlines anywhere, anytime. Don't see that causing people to demand everyone is flown into Europe to have a better life.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
And the same was happening to Haitians back in the 90s.

Coast Guard cutters coming back fro patrol with bodies stacked up like cordwood on the decks.

Tugs at the heart strings - but people then ignoring why the situation exists.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
No, that will lead to more people risking their lives to get to Europe. If you want to decrease these events, you need an Austrlian migration policy. As in: if you don't get here legally, you're not getting in. No one is dying off the coast of Australia anymore.
If the US accepts 100k refugees from Turkey, they won't try to get to Europe. Less people trying, less people dead.

Removing refugees from Turkey = more work, lower rents, even less people trying.

Anyway you are right about the Australia policy, when Italy started rescuing people right off Libya's coast, all they accomplished was that the boats just got more rickety and more people attempted the cross.
Final result: more dead people than before, and three times as many migrants.

Australia's policy may seem inhumane but it prevents death.

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Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
204
106
PingviN and IndyColtsFan, you guys are simply talking about the ONE kid and his background. The problem is more systemic than this one kid. It's what the one kid symbolizes -- all the other innocent children (and adults) in that part of the world that are being forced into such measures.

And in regards to the one kid, I don't give a crap what his personal background is. All I know is that there is a dead kid washed up on a beach and it's depressing.

Yes, it's a sad picture. And a sad symbol.

But the idea that "they are all poor people, and we have to help them all, no matter what" is a bit too simple.

First of all you need to realize there are 2 types of refugees at the moment.

1) The war refugees from Syria and Iraq. These mainly seem to come via Turkey.

2) Economic migrants from all over Africa and Asia. They try to enter Spain and Italy from Lybia and Morocco, via the Mediterrean. A large group even comes from places as far as Bangladesh.

I have zero sympathy for the economic migrants. There are half a billion poor people in Africa, half a billion suppressed people in China, and another half billion poor people in India. Should we set up an air-bridge to get them all to come to Europe ?

Now let's talk about the poor boy Aylan.
Because his story does tell us something about the general problem.

Aylan, his dad and mum, and a brother (5) and sister were living for 4 years in Turkey. In Istanbul ! Which is a normal semi-western city. They were safe there. They had no reason to flee any further. There is no war in Istanbul. Any risk they took to move countries was unnecessary.

His dad had no teeth. He needed new teeth. Regular dentures were not good enough. He wanted implants. That would have cost $14000. Aylan's dad could not afford that. So he made a plan, after 4 years of living in Istanbul, to illegally enter Greece. He would not ask from asylum in Greece, because Greece is not good enough for him. (If he had entered Greece the normal way, and asked for asylum there, he would have had to stay in Greece). No, they wanted to go to Germany. Because life in Germany is a lot better than in Greece. And in Germany he might get his teeth implants for free. That is why he took his family and took the risk go to Greece. He also hoped to be able to go to Canada, once he was in Germany.

It's still a sad story.
But for different reasons.

You might call this just one case, and not representative for all refuges. I disagree. I think the real victims are the people who are stuck in Syria. Or who are stuck in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan. Not the ones who insist in going to Germany, Sweden or the UK. Who think Greece and eastern european countries are not good enough for them. And certainly not the young african kids who come with smartphones to europe, and who have stacks of money to pay for their illegal trips.
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
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If the US accepts 100k refugees from Turkey, they won't try to get to Europe. Less people trying, less people dead.

Removing refugees from Turkey = more work, lower rents, even less people trying to do that.

There are 1.7 million Syrians in Turkey alone. Then we have another 60 million or so people currently displaced. Should we all chip in and divide these 60 million between us or only care about those in Turkey because chances are we might get another horrific picture of a dead child? Who really cares about the rest?

Let's start by deciding what our refuguee policy should be. Should it be a mean for people to get a better life, or temporary sanctuary until the situation from which people have fled has stabilised and improved? In Turkey, it's the second. In northern Europe, it's the first.

Turkey has stated, along with Lebanon and Jordan, that they will keep their borders open. We should offer resources to improve the situation for the many over there, instead of wasting resources on a few here. It doesn't matter if you send a million to Sweden, two million to Germany and five million to the US. They'll still require housing, food, medical treatment and other services, only difference is that's much, much more expensive than in Turkey or Lebanon.
Instead of sharing our resources among the refuguees, we give 90% (probably 99.9%) to the very few that made it here.
Fuck the rest, they're too far away for us to care.
 
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Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
If you needed this photo to wake up, you're pathetic and a shitty human being.



There are children dying of starvation, diarrhea, malaria, getting hacked to death, left in dumpsters to die because they happened to be female. That is depressing too and it happens hundreds or thousands of times every single day, all year around. Don't see that making the headlines anywhere, anytime. Don't see that causing people to demand everyone is flown into Europe to have a better life.

Ummmm.... You're sort of a pompous asshole I take it?

I don't need this photo to "wake up", but sometimes some images just really hit home -- like this one did with not only me, but apparently thousands of other people worldwide. Are you too fucking obtuse to realize that? So you've NEVER been moved or touched by a picture or image or video or anything?

Jesus fucking Christ. You must be a real blast at parties.
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
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Ummmm.... You're sort of a pompous asshole I take it?

I don't need this photo to "wake up", but sometimes some images just really hit home -- like this one did with not only me, but apparently thousands of other people worldwide. Are you too fucking obtuse to realize that? So you've NEVER been moved or touched by a picture or image or video or anything?

Jesus fucking Christ. You must be a real blast at parties.

Thousands of people around this world are shitty human beings. It's the same people that don't give two fucks in a basket about the hundreds of thousands of miserable deaths that occur every year. It's the people that tweet this picture or write some stupid shit on Facebook about how horrible and unfair his death was. Donate $10 to some refugee-related NGO and then go back to their life feeling a bit better about themselves.

They don't really care, they just found this picture a bit too disturbing to ignore like they ignore everything else that is happening.

If that's me being an asshole, then fuck you and carry on.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
I agree, but I'm not sure what can be done at this stage. The cynical side of me also wonders if ISIS could be using this mayhem and smuggling terrorist cells into Western Europe during this exodus. There are a lot of things to be concerned with here and I agree with PingVin's view that we should send resources to Turkey, Lebanon, and other nations in the region and have the refugees stay there.

Oh I agree as well -- I'm not suggesting we "support" these refugees by helping them leave etc. I"m saying the whole damn situation sucks and poor innocent kids like these are in essence, collateral damage -- whether it be the child of an economic refugee that want's implants, or if it's war refugee that truly is in dire straights.

Once again for some of those too thick headed to get it, I'm commenting on how sad the picture is both for the specific kid in the picture and for all those kids that the picture represents in that region -- regardless of the circumstances behind the impetus that drove their families to flee their country, these innocent kids had no choice in the matter. Just like when I see an article about some 3 year old kid getting caught in the crossfire in South Central LA... my heart goes out to that kid and ALL the kids in their situation.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,859
4,976
126
Thousands of people around this world are shitty human beings. It's the same people that don't give two fucks in a basket about the hundreds of thousands of miserable deaths that occur every year. It's the people that tweet this picture or write some stupid shit on Facebook about how horrible and unfair his death was. Donate $10 to some refugee-related NGO and then go back to their life feeling a bit better about themselves.

They don't really care, they just found this picture a bit too disturbing to ignore like they ignore everything else that is happening.

If that's me being an asshole, then fuck you and carry on.

Yeah but see, I didn't comment on donations or dumb comments on facebook. I simply stated that the picture is depressing (it's a fucking dead kid washed up on shore through no means of their own).
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,632
3,503
136
Because putting your child on an overfilled boat, knowing the risks, is totally fine and shouldn't be criticized at all.

Exactly! They should just hop on a plane and fly somewhere nice like New Hampshire to avoid being tortured and killed. I hear the leaves are starting to turn up there. I bet they could book a nice B&B. Why don't people think of these things? It's a mystery. :confused:
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
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Exactly! They should just hop on a plane and fly somewhere nice like New Hampshire to avoid being tortured and killed. I hear the leaves are starting to turn up there. I bet they could book a nice B&B. Why don't people think of these things? It's a mystery. :confused:



They left from TURKEY. You know, the place with no ISIS. They left to improve their living standard.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,632
3,503
136
They left from TURKEY. You know, the place with no ISIS. They left to improve their living standard.

Okay then, same question. Why get on a rickity overloaded boat when Lufthansa has beds in first class? It just doesn't make any sense.
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
106
Your first comment was beyond classless. Yes that's the gamble sometimes people in really bad situations face. They can stick around, starve, get shot, maimed, imprisoned, killed, locked up etc. Even if they are alive that's not really living.

A single man with nothing will easily take that gamble of possibly dying for possibly a better life, traveling across an ocean on an unsafe boat to a new world for a chance of an actual life is not a hard decision.

A man with a family has to make the toughest of decisions but if the situation is so bad, he likely has to risk his family rather than see them starve or live in fear.

He might not have been aware of the risks until it was too late. The human smugglers advertise their "products" using false advertising like pictures of cruise ships, and they also exaggerate the social and economic benefits that countries like Germany and Sweden provide to immigrants. It's advertised as a relatively safe and comfortable trip to paradise - you get your own house and car, and some even claim that a blonde girlfriend is included in the "package".

In reality, not only is the trip dangerous, but the social benefits are also extremely exaggerated. His family would probably have had a better life if in Turkey than in some Swedish immigrant ghetto where grenades are thrown and shots fired daily.

Okay then, same question. Why get on a rickity overloaded boat when Lufthansa has beds in first class? It just doesn't make any sense.

False advertising by human smugglers and the fact that getting in by air means stricter passport and visa checks (Turkey wasn't part of Schengen last time I checked).
 
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PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
81
Okay then, same question. Why get on a rickity overloaded boat when Lufthansa has beds in first class? It just doesn't make any sense.

because you are not let in if you dont have a visa, and those are not given out to anyone.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Exactly! They should just hop on a plane and fly somewhere nice like New Hampshire to avoid being tortured and killed. I hear the leaves are starting to turn up there. I bet they could book a nice B&B. Why don't people think of these things? It's a mystery. :confused:

Okay then, same question. Why get on a rickity overloaded boat when Lufthansa has beds in first class? It just doesn't make any sense.

Where have you been hiding ?

I like your sarcastic wit.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,919
8,184
126
God forbid they pick up a rifle, and fix their own country. Instead, they spread their bullshit across the world, and bring everyone else down to their level. Of the ~4M refugees, it can be conservatively assumed 1M are of fighting ability. That's a good army by any standard.