UEFI Boot - Is it worth it?

[mv2devnull]

For a Linux user "clean install" is easy, because program files, program configurations, and user data are (usually) separate.

Heh, your motherboard doesn’t even have EFI boot, does it? The i875K isn’t exactly ancient. GPT provides no practical benefit for discs 2 TB or less.

More than 4 "primary" partitions can solve dual boot installation/upgrade issues.

 

[taltamir]

MBR is from the 1980s and is extremely bad with a lot of issues, however for compatibility purposes people stuck with it.
GPT removes some technical limitations but its biggest features are supporting 512e (4K drivers emulating 512 drives... currently all 4K drives in existance are that, which is stupid) HDDs larger then 2TB and boot table redundancy.

GPT is not perfect by a long shot, its just not as bad as MBR, and it makes your data much safer.

The only "downside" to GPT is the really old software that never gets update will not support it.

 

[Axonn]

4. And settings are trivial.

Maybe for you. I use about 20 programs on a regular basis as I am an extremely busy guy. I'm also very, VERY picky about how my programs are configured. I got lots of keyboard shortcuts and customizations which most programs are too stupid to keep in a nice, portable, INI file. Some programs, like Visual Studio, can export settings, but the process is buggy to say the least.

So trust me, for some people in this world (and I bet I'm not alone here), doing a clean install and going back to EXACLTY THE WAY IT WAS BEFORE takes not 1 hour, not 1 day, but A WEEK or more (you keep discovering stuff you forgot to set, etc etc etc).

 

[taltamir]

Maybe for you. I use about 20 programs on a regular basis as I am an extremely busy guy. I'm also very, VERY picky about how my programs are configured.

That is not OS settings its program settings. And can be easily copied over by copying the relevant directories in application data and program configs. So still trivial.
I have it being backed up automatically since I don't want to lose them when (not if) my OS drives dies and it takes under 5 minutes to selectively restore those I wish to keep and discard the junk.

EXACLTY THE WAY IT WAS BEFORE

The whole POINT of a clean update is NOT going to exactly the way it was before.
You want to get an actual improvement. More stable system, cleaned, no junk or viruses or whatever.

but A WEEK or more (you keep discovering stuff you forgot to set, etc etc etc).

1. It will only take that long if you never bothered to learn how to do it properly.
2. Its potentially easier to learn how to do that properly then the alternatives.
3. Its unfair to say it took a week only because you finished everything but only realized a PROGRAM was missing or its setting unpersonalized a week later. And actually a week is generous, it can go on forever... As I explicitly stated some stuff you never actually install back. There are programs that dig their claws deep into your PC.

 

[Axonn]

>> That is not OS settings its program settings. And can be easily copied over by copying the relevant directories in application data and program configs. So still trivial.

Haven't I just said that MOST PROGRAMS DON'T SAVE THESE THINGS properly? Photoshop for example saves this crap in the Registry, so bye bye once you reinstall Windows ::- ). And I'm not about to go RegMon-ing every crappy setting, I'd waste days to get data for my programs ::- (.

>> You want to get an actual improvement. More stable system, cleaned, no junk or viruses or whatever.

As I said, I make my images freshly after install of programs & OS & settings. So there is no cleaning to do, there is no junk ::- ).

Also, what power user exactly is silly enough to get viruses (experimentation aside)? It's been at least 8 years since I had my last virus, and even that was because others on my network got hit by a worm which used WXP vulnerabilities (MSBlast to be precise).

>> 1. It will only take that long if you never bothered to learn how to do it properly.

This is one interesting point. How do I do it properly, care to elaborate? For example, please tell me how you would migrate Photoshop's panel layouts and preferences. And, if you use it, also tell me the same thing about Microsoft Word and Outlook (where does it store its e-mail accounts? And no, not the messages themselves, I know those reside in the PST).

>> 3. Its unfair to say it took a week only because you finished everything but only realized a PROGRAM was missing

True, and for this reason, starting with my next install, I will be keeping a TXT file describing exactly what I need to do, so that I finish faster next time.

 

[taltamir]

Haven't I just said that MOST PROGRAMS DON'T SAVE THESE THINGS properly?

You are wrong.

The vast majority of programs save to AppData and a few programs in ProgramData. Very rarely are those saved in registry.
You need to manually reconfigure or manually import/export them. that indeed takes some time. But if you know how it doesn't take a week.

Photoshop for example saves this crap in the Registry, so bye bye once you reinstall Windows ::- )

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/462065
10 seconds google search, bam!

As I said, I make my images freshly after install of programs & OS & settings. So there is no cleaning to do, there is no junk ::- ).

Yes there IS junk.
Even the greatest experts install shitty junk software without realizing it or out of necessity on occasion.
If you ever installed foxit reader or adope reader then your system is tainted until reformat. (recommendation, use SumatraPDF).
Low quality anti-virus solutions like norton?
Did you upgrade your video card and switched between AMD and nVidia? uh-oh!
Did you make the horrible mistake of buying a creative audio card and saddled with their OS ruining drivers?
What is that? You installed MS Virtual Studio 2005/2008? Well too bad it makes irreversible OS changes and you have 2010 or with to switch to a FOSS alternative.

Furthermore, WTF!
You ranted about photoshop settings being uncopyable and now you claim to do a "clean install, install programs, configure settings, and image" process?...

Do you honestly expect me to believe you NEVER EVER add anything to your photoshop? that you can make an image in jan 1st 2010 and then just happily revert to it today without losing your precious PS scripts, settings, and customizations?
Or are you thinking that superficial junk like the location of panels which takes literally under 1 minute combined to make all changes for PS? I hope you don't and refer to more complex stuff like scripts, color palettes, etc.

please tell me how you would migrate Photoshop's panel layouts and preferences.

That stuff takes LITERALLY under a minute to redo. I have done it a dozen times. But I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming "preferences" to include actual valuable custom stuff you made. Here are the instructions... http://forums.adobe.com/thread/462065
10 seconds google search, bam!

And, if you use it, also tell me the same thing about Microsoft Word and Outlook (where does it store its e-mail accounts? And no, not the messages themselves, I know those reside in the PST).

Why would I use that POS?
And it stores it in appdata http://email.about.com/od/outlooktips/ss/find_ol_data.htm

PS. An important thing about my system is that I am always prepared, ahead of time, to do a reinstall... I set up automatic backups for anything that needs it. If windows fails to load I don't panic about my lost program settings, I reinstall windows and just plop them back in.
If I reverted to an image made right after a clean install, I would lose months of settings, and gained a little junk.
If I reverted to a recent image I would lose a little but gain much more junk and issues.

 

[Maximilian]

Dont know if we're still talking about UEFI boot or not but i just tried it out there and its not worth it. Wait for windows 8 to move to UEFI unless you need to boot from a 2.2TB drive anytime soon.

Also it may or may not be a total PITA, i had several issues installing it from a missing winload.efi to a bluescreen when win 7 tried to install the intel HD graphics driver.

Glad i did it though, now i know what to do in the future when i eventually upgrade this 500GB which seems smaller and smaller every year.

 

[Old Hippie]

Wait for windows 8 to move to UEFI unless you need to boot from a 2.2TB drive anytime soon.

What does Windows 8 have to do with it?

 

[mv2devnull]

What does Windows 8 have to do with it?

He probably assumes that a typical user does not do the "take a clean disk and partition it" routine before installing the next OS and that that OS would be Windows 8.


Windows Easy Transfer -- I assume that it diligently copies all the junk over?


An observation: Dell servers now come with GPT-partition on their disks. I was joyful until I was told that the application to install requires older OS whose bootloader lacks the GPT-support.

 

[Maximilian]

What does Windows 8 have to do with it?

If you're gonna clean install the OS you might as well wait for the next version of windows to move to UEFI boot.

 

[Coup27]

taltamir you are clearly an experienced and knowledgeable user but your views here seem to be bordering on the extreme. You talk about MBR like a disastrous piece of technology ignoring the fact that it has been the de facto standard for decades. I have never in the hundreds of systems I've used or been responsible for seen one go a bollock being down to MBR falling apart out the blue without somebody cocking about with it doing some bad attempt at a dual boot or something. It's so shocking you ditched your current MBR board and switched to GPT immediately. No you didnt, because you're using it right now.

That is a mistake. MBR is horrible and should not be used over GPT.

So you would really have me roll out 15 computers in a work environment using GPT with no support for imaging? I am aware there are imaging programs which support GPT but I find it staggering that you would choose GPT and no imaging over MBR and imaging in a corporate environment.

What is your problem with Foxit Reader? Adobe Reader, Yes, it's ghastly. I use Foxit Reader. It does not add to my startup, running processes and is light weight. It has clunky update procedure but that's all I can see. The PDF program you linked to looks like its years behind Foxit in GUI and features.

I have been using a Creative Audigy PCI Express soundcard for the last few years, on two different machines and it has not "ruined" my OS. I know all about Creative's reputation but my system has never been unstable due to their current drivers, nor do I have lots of crap associated with it littered around my system.

Your posts appear to have forgotten the purpose of a computer is to be used. You have to install things, you have to add things on, take things out, change this, swap that. That is the whole point. I thought I was particular on how my Windows was setup but I have nothing on you. I have Foxit installed, Office 2010 H&S, Logitech software for my keyboard and mouse, my phone software, and lots of little bits of free software. I have 48 running processes right now and 3 startup registry entries; IAStorIcon, SPIRunE, and StartCCC. my system is neat, tidy, fast and stable. I do not reformat from scratch the moment I want to remove a program or change something.

 

[taltamir]

taltamir you are clearly an experienced and knowledgeable user but your views here seem to be bordering on the extreme.

Hyperbole and irrelevant and false and insulting.

Your posts appear to have forgotten the purpose of a computer is to be used. You have to install things, you have to add things on, take things out, change this, swap that. That is the whole point. I thought I was particular on how my Windows was setup but I have nothing on you.

Hyperbole and irrelevant and false and insulting.

I do not reformat from scratch the moment I want to remove a program or change something.

Hyperbole and irrelevant and false and insulting.
This is not even close to anything I suggested and pretty much sums up what is wrong with your "criticisms". It is nothing but strawmen and hyperbole.

What is your problem with Foxit Reader?

Foxit is a closed program that is free to use, it is faster then adobe reader, but has issues in rendering and GUI. It would be acceptable for side by side use (if there weren't better programs out there) but the real problem with it is that it hooks into the computer and doesn't let go. It used to not have an uninstaller, period. Recently it added one that doesn't work properly and leaves a lot of things in. Once you installed foxit you will have issues opening PDFs via various sources in anything BUT foxit.
Here is my guide to removing it http://forums.guichamps.com/379505

SumatraPDF is a FOSS program that is faster then foxit, has better PDF compatibility, is not as intrusive, and be properly uninstalled. Its years AHEAD of foxit not years behind.

I know all about Creative's reputation but my system has never been unstable due to their current drivers

So you believe. And even if true that is the exception not the norm. Their reputation is well deserved.

You talk about MBR like a disastrous piece of technology ignoring the fact that it has been the de facto standard for decades.

1. MBR is disasterous. That is is used out of convention doesn't make it good.
2. Yes it is the de-facto standard... so?

I have never in the hundreds of systems I've used or been responsible for seen one go a bollock being down to MBR falling apart out the blue without somebody cocking about with it doing some bad attempt at a dual boot or something.

So duel booting is bad now? Aside from that, routine random errors in the drive damage the MBR and a single such error in the sectors containing the MBR itself can cause all data to be lost (I have seen it happen). You being unaware enough to attribute legitimate issues to MBR does not mean it has never had issues.

It's so shocking you ditched your current MBR board and switched to GPT immediately.

What is an MBR board? Do you mean UEFI vs BIOS? Windows can only boot from GPT disks with UEFI but you can use GPT for data.

No you didnt, because you're using it right now.

I am using both, when I have the option to use GPT I do.
I didn't advocate throwing in the trash working hardware to upgrade to GPT. But when you have the option to use GPT over MBR you should.

 

[pitz]

As others have written, the benefits of UEFI are mostly not visible to the user. With BIOS, literally everything had to be written in assembly language. If Asus wanted to implement a fancy set of menus or a mouse interface in their bootup screens, this would need to be written in assembly language.

With UEFI, system firmware-level drivers can be implemented in assembly. The UEFI command shell allows OEMs to set up hardware for things like diskless booting, or flashing firmware, without even loading up an OS.

For instance, I loaded up the UEFI command shell last night, and flashed by Intel PCI-E Gig-E adapters with the latest UEFI+iSCSI firmware. This is, of course, a huge help in environments where computers may not have disk drives and merely communicate entirely over the network, since UEFI supports networking right in the firmware.

Another thing that UEFI might enable is completely downloadable operating systems. Dell might, in the future, ship you a computer, that starts up with a menu, asking you if you want it to be loaded with MS-Windows, MacOS, or Linux. Connect the machine to a network, and wham, it downloads the OS of choice and loads it. To implement this sort of functionality in Assembly language is extraordinarily difficult. To implement it in C is comparatively easy, especially since code can be re-used.

Contemporary UEFI PC's are often not fully UEFI, nor do they fully exploit such. But UEFI provides a robust environment that can be used for things such as using multiple cores of the CPU to initialize hardware.

The direction AMD seems to be going is to use "coreboot", which is, basically, going directly to a Linux-style firmware. Its an equally valid approach. I mean, a lot of machines run Linux already, so why not just boot the machine with Linux to begin with!

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

nm

 

[BFG10K]

BFG10K: Wow, holy macaroni! How big are your backups? I usually back up only OS & programs. Games were on a different partition (since I got most of them on Steam which doesn't complain at OS reinstall). But now since I switched to SSD, they reside on the OS partition and, because the total size is almost 70 GB, I stopped making backups because "they're too large". And here is this guy with a ~450 GB backup ::- D.

The total backup is somewhere between 500-600 GB and it sits on a 750 GB Caviar Blue. Every time I get a new HDD the old one becomes the backup drive.

I have games and applications on different partitions too, but they’re still backed up. Most games have been heavily customized over the years with mods, HD content packs, config files, patches, etc, so it would take an eternity to rebuild them without a backup.

This is one of the reasons why I don’t see the point of a small boot SSD paired with a slow green HDD. I boot once a day and shaving seven seconds off that is not going to outweigh the constant slowdown of a green drive. The green drive will also slow down all backups and restores too.

 

[Axonn]

BFG10K: depends on who you are. If you'd be a media man (music, movies), SSD would be pointless. But you're a gamer. In that case, SSD would also benefit loading times. I got 120 GB of SSD and it's more than enough for Windows + the games I'm *currently* playing. However, I'm also a software developer so that makes the SSD even more important for me as Visual Studio / Flash Builder and all the other stuff I'm using really have benefits from that speed!

 

[BFG10K]

BFG10K: depends on who you are. If you'd be a media man (music, movies), SSD would be pointless. But you're a gamer. In that case, SSD would also benefit loading times. I got 120 GB of SSD and it's more than enough for Windows + the games I'm *currently* playing. However, I'm also a software developer so that makes the SSD even more important for me as Visual Studio / Flash Builder and all the other stuff I'm using really have benefits from that speed!

I got a Raptor 150 GB at launch but it wasn’t long before I ran out of space, and that was back in 2007. The reality of this really kicked in when I purchased a Caviar Blue 750 GB that not only loaded my games faster than the Raptor, it had a ton more space and cost far less, both in total cost and cost per GB.

This is the same drive I’m using today to backup my main Caviar Black.

Something similar is happening now where the newest mechanical drives are beating the first generation SSDs while costing far less and having far more space.

So it was an interesting exercise, but I’m not going back to buying smaller and more expensive drives. They're just not worth it in the long run IMO.

 

[Axonn]

Taltamir: most hardware companies make very shitty software. As for FoxIt, suffice to say that I'm using an older version. The new ones, I hear, are quite annoying.

Thank you for the Photoshop tip! As for Outlook, I like it ::- ). I do use quite a bit of OSS, not to mention I'm also an OSS creator, having 3 OSS projects, but some Outlook still remains my favourite mail program.

No, I didn't mean to say that I don't make changes to my programs after I make an image. What I do is write those changes in a TXT file, restore the fresh image, make the changes and then re-back-up ::- ).

Well, I did. I'm not doing it any more. Starting Windows 7 I stopped using images and I'm using the old fashioned reinstall that you're such a big fan of. However, I try to avoid reinstall as much as possible because it takes so much to get my system back to how I prefer to have it.