U.S. No Health Care 10-15 GOP based Medicare plan squanders $15 billion in 2007

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jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Most hospitals (and clinics for that matter) receive some form of government money to keep the doors open. Most would not stay open if they did not receive this money. My mother manages a small pediatric clinic in a rural area. They are in the process of qualifying for rural health care now. This gives them a check every month from the government that augments the normal revenue. The amount of help is pretty large too. High six figures to low seven figures. Depending on a lot of criteria.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: Vic
And yet the urban hospitals in my area are all flush with cash and expanding at a rapid rate.

How can this be?</blockquote>

You live in Utopia as evidenced by your posts.

Answer is for whole Country to move to Portland Oregon?

Or Tulsa. Every hospital here is expanding.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: bbdub333
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Speaking of Utopia.

Anyone know what kind of health care system Japan has?

http://www.medhunters.com/arti...healthcareInJapan.html

The Japanese healthcare system is highly regulated by the government and, as described by the OECD, "combines a mainly private provision of services with mandatory health insurance. Service providers are paid directly by insurers (the third payer system). Payments for outpatient care are predominantly on a fee for service basis, and inpatient care is paid through a mixture of per diem and fee for service. Fees for different medical services are set out in the Fee Schedule announced by the government and revised every two years. Between 20 and 30% of the fees are born by patients as co-payments. But with a ceiling (see below) the effective co-payment rate is about 14%."

All doctors in Japan are paid the same fee for each service. Specifically, the OECD report Health Care Reform in Japan explains, "Another characteristic of the Japanese system is a conspicuous lack of differentiation and standardisation. First, the fee for a given service is identical across service providers and does not recognise the difference in quality. Second, general practice medicine is not clearly established as a separate discipline, so that specialist doctors are not differentiated from general practitioners. Virtually all doctors in private clinics try to deal with all the problems of their patients."

People are assigned a health insurer according to their employment situation. Those who are employed at a company or office are insured by the Social Insurance System (SIS). This system is funded by the employers (who pay varyingly from 50 to 80% of the cost) and by premiums paid by the employees. Everyone else (the unemployed, elderly, and self-employed, including lawyers, doctors, etc.) is insured through the National Health Insurance (NHI) system. The NHI system is funded by the government and the employed members of the system.

Ouch.

It it very obvious this system does not work and deadly.

Looks like it is a system that Canadians have been saying they want.

They should look at this mix in Japan and not wish it.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Another corrupt and incompetent Industry keeps getting rewarded:

9-11-2007 Health care premiums rise 6.1 percent

The increasing cost of health insurance is putting coverage out of reach for many small to midsize companies and their workers, even though the rise in premiums this year was the lowest increase in eight years.

Since 2001, the cost of premiums has gone up 78 percent, far outpacing a 19 percent increase in wages and 17 percent jump in inflation.

There's no scientific tipping point that you can point to at which health insurance becomes unaffordable," said Drew Altman, the foundation's president and CEO.

"But it does seem like we've crossed a threshold where health insurance is increasingly unaffordable for medium-sized employers, particularly smaller employers and average people this year."=========================================================

But but but that is where the P&Ners say where the jobs and money is.

So if people can't get insurance there where are these P&Ners getting their insurance, magic?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
I used to be pissed off about these outrages by our health care system, but now I am not, because that's what it will take to bring universal health care to the US.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Another corrupt and incompetent Industry keeps getting rewarded:

9-11-2007 Health care premiums rise 6.1 percent

The increasing cost of health insurance is putting coverage out of reach for many small to midsize companies and their workers, even though the rise in premiums this year was the lowest increase in eight years.

Since 2001, the cost of premiums has gone up 78 percent, far outpacing a 19 percent increase in wages and 17 percent jump in inflation.

There's no scientific tipping point that you can point to at which health insurance becomes unaffordable," said Drew Altman, the foundation's president and CEO.

"But it does seem like we've crossed a threshold where health insurance is increasingly unaffordable for medium-sized employers, particularly smaller employers and average people this year."=========================================================

But but but that is where the P&Ners say where the jobs and money is.

So if people can't get insurance there where are these P&Ners getting their insurance, magic?

Dave, most of us will admit that rising healthcare costs are a major problem, and that something needs to be done about it. However, you assume that everybody here is as helpless as you, and would rather bitch and moan about the problem rather than going out and doing what we have to do in order to take care of ourselves and our family. I've personally never had a problem securing insurance, even if it does cost too damn much.

 
Oct 30, 2004
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I would have liked to have seen the article mention the reasons for the cost increases. Could it be that as the percentage of Americans and illegal aliens who are poor increases that everyone else has to pay for them in their health insurance costs and that this creates a vicious circle? As premiums rise fewer Americans can afford health insurance and so fewer Americans have health insurance, further increasing premiums for those who do, etc.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Another corrupt and incompetent Industry keeps getting rewarded:

9-11-2007 Health care premiums rise 6.1 percent

The increasing cost of health insurance is putting coverage out of reach for many small to midsize companies and their workers, even though the rise in premiums this year was the lowest increase in eight years.

Since 2001, the cost of premiums has gone up 78 percent, far outpacing a 19 percent increase in wages and 17 percent jump in inflation.

There's no scientific tipping point that you can point to at which health insurance becomes unaffordable," said Drew Altman, the foundation's president and CEO.

"But it does seem like we've crossed a threshold where health insurance is increasingly unaffordable for medium-sized employers, particularly smaller employers and average people this year."=========================================================

But but but that is where the P&Ners say where the jobs and money is.

So if people can't get insurance there where are these P&Ners getting their insurance, magic?

Dave, most of us will admit that rising healthcare costs are a major problem, and that something needs to be done about it. However, you assume that everybody here is as big a loser as you, and would rather bitch and moan about the problem rather than going out and doing what we have to do in order to take care of ourselves and our family. I've personally never had a problem securing insurance, even if it does cost too damn much.

That's because obviously either you are a Jeanie or ricjh or both. Good for you. :cookie:
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.
 

Worlocked

Senior member
Nov 9, 2005
289
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

Ahhhh, using the Republican "pray you don't get sick" health plan like a good little puppet. At least you practice what you preach.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

Seriously, John, why can't you see that you are at risk for medical problems, and are taking a terrible gamble you should not have to, that universal healthcare is a better policy?

I don't want to see you and others suffer and there's no need for you to.

But the ideology is thick in this one, as I see the 'sick' are not using, but are 'over using' their insurance. No, they're not. They're sick and they should use it a lot.

You would think that the fact that every other advanced society has it, and many very effectively like Germany, would make an impression, get past your ideology.

Not going to a doctor for 15 years because it's too expensive is *a bad system*. Period. My gosh, you can take the horse to medicine, but you can't make it take it.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,259
202
106
Originally posted by: Worlocked
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

Ahhhh, using the Republican "pray you don't get sick" health plan like a good little puppet. At least you practice what you preach.

That is what I have been doing for the last 3 years (not by choice). Though I guess I could have paid $200 a month for insurance with a $5,000 deductible, but that $5,000 deductible would have been enough to wipe me out. As of this month however, I am finally on the group plan at work (small group of 10), and insurance will be costing my employer about $400 / month, with a low deductible.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,259
202
106
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

But wait until you get married / have children, or even have an 'unplanned' emergency like appendicitis. In 2000 I had acute appendicitis which ruptured within a 4 hour period. We didn't know what it was, and since I didn't have insurance I was fearful of going to the emergency room. Add to that when we did I was misdiagnosed and sent home only to have to go back 2 hours later. Wham, a bill for $25,000, and they were nice enough to ask for payment in full. What do you do then? There was no chance of getting it reduced, and no lawyer would touch the case because I lived. If I had died, which I almost did, my wife would had been set. In the end we had to consider bankruptcy to avoid losing everything we had as we were newly married I was still running a fledgling business (anyone remember Trinitymicro?). Luckily 3 years later we did have great insurance and my wife was diagnosed with cancer, she did die, and during a 4 month period accumulated $400,000 in medical bills, fortunately all but about $5,000 was covered.

Hope your gamble pays off like it did for me the last 3 years, but consider, one bad roll of the dice can wipe you out and possibly change your future for the worse.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

Seriously, John, why can't you see that you are at risk for medical problems, and are taking a terrible gamble you should not have to, that universal healthcare is a better policy?

I don't want to see you and others suffer and there's no need for you to.

But the ideology is thick in this one, as I see the 'sick' are not using, but are 'over using' their insurance. No, they're not. They're sick and they should use it a lot.

You would think that the fact that every other advanced society has it, and many very effectively like Germany, would make an impression, get past your ideology.

Not going to a doctor for 15 years because it's too expensive is *a bad system*. Period. My gosh, you can take the horse to medicine, but you can't make it take it.

Craig - Let these people think that is the best policy. They will die off quicker than you can imagine. Remember yesterday's report that Americans are living longer to 78? That will drop like a rock over the next few years.

I just had a friend drop dead that she thought she was healthy as a horse. Hadn't been to the Dentist in about ten years. Had no mouth pain or anything but apparently there was an abcess and died in her sleep from septic shock.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

But wait until you get married / have children, or even have an 'unplanned' emergency like appendicitis. In 2000 I had acute appendicitis which ruptured within a 4 hour period. We didn't know what it was, and since I didn't have insurance I was fearful of going to the emergency room. Add to that when we did I was misdiagnosed and sent home only to have to go back 2 hours later. Wham, a bill for $25,000, and they were nice enough to ask for payment in full. What do you do then? There was no chance of getting it reduced, and no lawyer would touch the case because I lived. If I had died, which I almost did, my wife would had been set. In the end we had to consider bankruptcy to avoid losing everything we had as we were newly married I was still running a fledgling business (anyone remember Trinitymicro?). Luckily 3 years later we did have great insurance and my wife was diagnosed with cancer, she did die, and during a 4 month period accumulated $400,000 in medical bills, fortunately all but about $5,000 was covered.

Hope your gamble pays off like it did for me the last 3 years, but consider, one bad roll of the dice can wipe you out and possibly change your future for the worse.

:(
rose.gif
so sorry about your wife and glad you survived.

Seriously not directed directly to you but others that post about not having insurance as the best way to go.

So is this considered a Republican Utopian Health care success story?
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,259
202
106
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

:(
rose.gif
so sorry about your wife and glad you survived.

Seriously not directed directly to you but others that post about not having insurance as the best way to go.

So is this considered a Republican Utopian Health care success story?

2/3's successful (my 5 year old son and myself).

Edit: I guess one of the things that pisses me off is that the health care system (doctors and hospitals) can still charge for misdiagnoses. A misdiagnoses in the case of my appendix, which made the situation worse. With my wife, she started having blood clots 4 months prior to being diagnosed with leukemia, but they were so sure it was due to having had a child and birth control. In the end they didn't get paid for the appendix, but they got paid in full for my for not picking up the cancer until it was too late.

Almost no other business can run like that.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

:(
rose.gif
so sorry about your wife and glad you survived.

Seriously not directed directly to you but others that post about not having insurance as the best way to go.

So is this considered a Republican Utopian Health care success story?

2/3's successful (my 5 year old son and myself).

Edit: I guess one of the things that pisses me off is that the health care system (doctors and hospitals) can still charge for misdiagnoses. A misdiagnoses in the case of my appendix, which made the situation worse. With my wife, she started having blood clots 4 months prior to being diagnosed with leukemia, but they were so sure it was due to having had a child and birth control. In the end they didn't get paid for the appendix, but they got paid in full for my for not picking up the cancer until it was too late.

Almost no other business can run like that.

Actually this type of business model is what is being applied to most businesses now from Internet connectivty to car repair to banking to everything.

The old adage the customer is always right is gone, it is now the customer is there to get screwed and make the execs at the top rich without impunity.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I just had a friend drop dead that she thought she was healthy as a horse. Hadn't been to the Dentist in about ten years. Had no mouth pain or anything but apparently there was an abcess and died in her sleep from septic shock.
I know of plenty of people in Canada who NEVER go to the doctor. They have insurance, they don't use it.

Remember yesterday's report that Americans are living longer to 78? That will drop like a rock over the next few years.
Based on what?

Almost no other business can run like that.

Very true, but then unfortunately almost no other business is consistently run that's so hard to do. You expect to have a car fixed because of an accurate and easy diagnosis by a pro and he'll fix it properly 99% of the time. Medicine is faaaaar harder to do. If doctors were only paid when they were right, their pay would fall down to nothing OR we'd have to pay them 10X as much for cases in which they're right. I use my own experience with trying to get my knee sorted out as an example. I've seen many doctors and yet none can conclusively say what the problem is, and we're talking something relatively simple like a knee and using the best diagnostic equipment available. Blood clots or "chest paints" or "feeling tired" can be sooooooooo many things.

Sorry to hear about your wife, that is awful.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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Insurance really is just gambling. You basically make a decision that the costs of your premiums and your deductibles have less value to you than the value of not losing everything you own (in the case of health insurance) and of not receiving bad treatment. That's why people are so willing to bend over and pay these high premiums.

John, at the very least, get catastrophic coverage for yourself if you can afford it. Also, feel very thankful that you can afford it, for a great many Americans cannot.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
FYI I don't own a home so they don't have a lot to 'take' if something did go wrong.

But like you said it is a gamble. What I would be paying a year is far more than what a visit to a dr would cost for something minor.

Craig...
I am not avoiding the doctor because it is to expensive. I am not going to the doctor because I have no need to visit the doctor. There are times in the past 15 years when I had health insurance and I never used it.

Now if I was married or had a child I would sign up for the health insurance, but as a single person with no kids I am rather low risk of medical need. I don't have a life insurance policy for the same reason. If I die there is no one to leave all that money too :)

Universal Healthcare: a system under which I will end up paying more taxes and still most likely not use it.

Finally... I am far from poor, I have just decided that I have better things to do with that $840 a year.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I just had a friend drop dead that she thought she was healthy as a horse. Hadn't been to the Dentist in about ten years. Had no mouth pain or anything but apparently there was an abcess and died in her sleep from septic shock.

I know of plenty of people in Canada who NEVER go to the doctor.

They have insurance, they don't use it.

So Canadians are fools?
 

Worlocked

Senior member
Nov 9, 2005
289
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn Finally... I am far from poor, I have just decided that I have better things to do with that $840 a year.

Lol, 840 a year... I spend more than that on my computer and gaming consoles and I'm doing just fine financially WITH healthcare(which I make use of). If you're really so well off there is no damned reason you shouldn't be making regular visits to the doctor and dentist, etc... Talk about lack of personal responsibility. I don't know if anyone let you in on the little secret that you only have 1 life and set of permanent teeth, but it'd be wise to take good care of both... Especially considering you claim to make decent wages.

There are so many silent killers you can easily end up with that it makes no sense to not visit the doctor AT LEAST annually for a full physical with standard blood tests. Besides... Wtf else could be more worthwhile moneywise than your personal well being? I really don't understand people like you.

EDIT: I don't know if moonbeam is right in that so many people just plain hate themselves or they are just so fucking stupid and/or deluded that they believe nothing can happen to them...
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Worlocked
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Whipper? don?t forget the fact that many healthy single people, like myself, are choosing NOT to get healthcare because the costs are too high.

I have not been to the Doctor or hospital in over 15 years so I decided to gamble that I will continue to be healthy rather than throw about money week after week just incase I do get sick.

This creates a problem because it is the healthy people who do not use their insurance that subsidize the sick people that over use their insurance.

Ahhhh, using the Republican "pray you don't get sick" health plan like a good little puppet. At least you practice what you preach.

So youre saying being self-insured is a bad financial decision? If so, you are a fool.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
I was ribbed all weekend long when I said Hillary was going to come out with this.

Today she did.

I also have taken a lot of crap from P&Ners when I said if you are in business in the U.S. you take care of your employees or you don't deserve to be in business.

Of course the standard reply was that then Companies would fold up.

Well fine, there will be plenty of other real Americans that will set up shop and fill the void of the Anti-America hating Corporate bastages.

You go gurl:

9-17-2007 Clinton calls for universal health care

Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton called for universal health care on Monday, plunging back into the bruising political battle she famously waged and lost as first lady on an issue that looms large in the 2008 presidential race.

Her declaration was a clear message to Republicans, the insurance industry, businesses and millions of voters who nervously recall what sank her effort at health care reform 13 years ago in her husband's first term ? fear of a big-government takeover.

In unveiling her plan, she called for a requirement for businesses to obtain insurance for employees, and said the wealthy should pay higher taxes to help defray the cost for those less able to pay for it.

The New York senator said her plan would require every American to purchase insurance, either through their jobs or through a program modeled on Medicare or the federal employee health plan. Businesses would be required to offer insurance or contribute to a pool that would expand coverage. Individuals and small businesses would be offered tax credits to make insurance more affordable.

"I believe everyone ? every man, woman and child ? should have quality, affordable health care in America"

To pay for her plan, Clinton said the tax cuts for Americans making $250,000 that were enacted under President Bush would be allowed to expire.

People who are happy with their insurance keep what they have, her plan would raise taxes on some coverage for the wealthy.