U.S. Navy-China showdown: Chinese try to halt U.S. cruiser in international waters

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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Just sink one of their ships and kill everyone on board. If they want a fight, give it to them. They have an advantage because they think we will not fight because the great apologizer is a coward.
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Just move every Navy ship we have off the coast of china and blockade all Chinese ships. Put some aircraft carriers and missle cruisers in the area also.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
The problem is this is china's view on the sea as they think they can claim the entire thing more or less:

south_china_sea.gif
Im glad this was pointed out earlier on in the discussion. This has happened several times where the US would be in this are of dispute and china would get upset. It will most likely just end up with the US and China arguing a little and then moving on till the next instance
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Not sure, I got it from "Top Gun" :)

I was on a carrier. When a carrier task force is at sea to get within 25 miles you're basically weaving in-between destroyers, cruisers, and support ships. Obviously when they are pulling into or out of port that's different.

From what I recall, a carrier is considered a piece of floating soil. As such, the normal 50 mile 'territorial waters' in all directions around the carrier means that if you get within 50 miles it becomes debatable whether you are in international waters anymore. Actual ROE are of course probably classified, and probably vary between task forces. But suffice it to say, there is a limit to how close anyone is allowed to get to a carrier at sea.

You would never see, for example, a USSR cruiser wander into a US Carrier Task Force. They would be boarded, rammed, or blown up - guarantee it. That's why they used fishing boats, to look innocent and non-threatening.

I think this topic is overblown though.

I don't think what the Chinese did has anything to do with their regional sea claims. They're probably just now developing their ROE for potentially hostile vessels approaching a very high value national military asset, and the US is testing them. And I'm pretty sure that is all that is involved in reality.

So basically I would expect to see more of the same as China becomes more powerful on the water. This is just like shit that went down constantly with the USSR during the cold war, generally unknown to the public unless something stupid like this happened :

http://www.navalhistory.org/2011/03/21/soviet-sub-collides-with-uss-kitty-hawk-21-march-1984

"It was the submarine, however, that had a lasting impact on the ship and its cruise. At 2207 on 21 March the submarine surfaced and collided with the carrier. "

Yeap, this is one of the very few fair post in this forum, funny to see how the US media manipulate the same old anti-Chinese rhetoric, distort facts and bunch of clueless American just eat up all the crap fed to them.

China was conducting an exercise with their new carrier Liaoning in South China Sea, and Cowpens was tailing the fleet and surveying Chinese fleet's every move. You American people may think every other person's information is for you to spy on, but the rest of the world don';t agree with that. If a Chinese or Russian missile cruiser followed American fleet and gather every intel about the fleet, American fleet would have done the same thing to try and repel the Chinese or Russian cruiser.

But no, the media have to make it like the Big Bad China is trying to take over South China Sea...man....how stupid those media think people are....wait...apparently bunch of American are that stupid....
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Yeap, this is one of the very few fair post in this forum, funny to see how the US media manipulate the same old anti-Chinese rhetoric, distort facts and bunch of clueless American just eat up all the crap fed to them.

China was conducting an exercise with their new carrier Liaoning in South China Sea, and Cowpens was tailing the fleet and surveying Chinese fleet's every move. You American people may think every other person's information is for you to spy on, but the rest of the world don';t agree with that. If a Chinese or Russian missile cruiser followed American fleet and gather every intel about the fleet, American fleet would have done the same thing to try and repel the Chinese or Russian cruiser.

But no, the media have to make it like the Big Bad China is trying to take over South China Sea...man....how stupid those media think people are....wait...apparently bunch of American are that stupid....


Hypocrisy. If big bad China isn't trying to take over the South China Sea, then how you explain their territorial claims? For that matter, how do you explain their unilateral "air defense zone" (aka land grab) and subsequent instigated confrontations, further north? Not too long ago China scrambled fighters to "investigate" US and Japanese aircraft passing through this internationally illegitimate zone, I don't remember us threatening to shoot down Chinese fighters as a result.
 
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rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Hypocrisy. If big bad China isn't trying to take over the South China Sea, then how you explain their massive, unilateral "air defense zone" (aka land grab) and subsequent instigated confrontations? Not too long ago China scrambled fighters to "investigate" US and Japanese aircraft passing through this internationally illegitimate zone, I don't remember us threatening to shoot down Chinese fighters as a result.

Dude, do you even know where that "air defense zone" is? Hint, that's in East China and not South China. And before China declared that air defense zone, Japan already have their own air defense zone covering the same air space and more, and Japan certainly didn't check with China when they declared their defense zone.

Yeah I get it, when the US and their ally do something for their national interest, it's perfectly fine. When others like China does it, it's internationally illegitimate....haha, what's new.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
Just move every Navy ship we have off the coast of china and blockade all Chinese ships. Put some aircraft carriers and missle cruisers in the area also.

Well that sounds like a totally reasonable, non-insane response to the situation.

I for one think we should retaliate by destroying China's rover on the moon. A few hundred nuclear weapons should do the trick.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Dude, do you even know where that "air defense zone" is? Hint, that's in East China and not South China. And before China declared that air defense zone, Japan already have their own air defense zone covering the same air space and more, and Japan certainly didn't check with China when they declared their defense zone.

Yeah I get it, when the US and their ally do something for their national interest, it's perfectly fine. When others like China does it, it's internationally illegitimate....haha, what's new.

Alright, so I misspoke on the geography, so sue me. Regardless the maps speak for themselves, and my point stands. China's demands are the most extreme, and they are by far the most confrontational and expansionist nation in the region. If you think provoking military confrontations between China and America is in China's national interest, you are a fool.

China's air defense zone is internationally illegitimate by virtue of the fact that no nations I'm aware of are acknowledging it. Also note that the Japanese air defense zone dates back to 1969. Now, over 40 years later, China has finally decided to challenge it? Coincidence, or convenient excuse?

south_china_sea.gif

0628C045-EAD2-470E-8752-DFFBF05BA9A4_mw1024_n_s.jpg
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Hypocrisy. If big bad China isn't trying to take over the South China Sea, then how you explain their massive, unilateral "air defense zone" (aka land grab) and subsequent instigated confrontations? Not too long ago China scrambled fighters to "investigate" US and Japanese aircraft passing through this internationally illegitimate zone, I don't remember us threatening to shoot down Chinese fighters as a result.


Don't get our gov't doing something in the 'national interest' mixed up with doing the right thing, or being the good guy. Don't even be that stupid.

People don't get riled up and angry without thinking they're right about something, and the Chinese are no different.

Here's a little hint for you. In 1937-1945 China lost about 20 Million fighting Japan, and had about 15 million injured. One particular event, known as the "Rape of Nanking", resulted in ~ 300,000 civilians in one city being systematically raped and executed by the Japanese.


Here's one exerpt from someone who was there :

"On December 23rd, Japanese invaders used several dozens of trucks, drove more than one thousand elderly, women and children to the sandbank, and buried them alive in a huge pit dug beforehand. All the victims' hands were tied behind their backs, they could only cry and curse, they had no way to resist."

It looked something like this :

headscut.gif




Why do I mention that?

Because one big item about the South China Sea is the dispute between Japan and China is over a chain of islands called the Senkaku Islands, and adjacent waters.

Not to mention, Taiwan.

So lets think about this. The Senkaku islands, and Taiwan, were taken from China by force in *two* very bloody wars defending against genocidal aggression by the Japanese (yes there was a first, and second, Sino-Japanese war).

China didn't fight Japan being given the islands initially because they were devastated, and dependent on US support. That's pretty much historical fact, in a nutshell.

Now try to empathize, put yourself in China's shoes. I'd be pretty pissed about it, and as my country got stronger, I'd probably expect them to do something to fix it. Wouldn't you? Asia got a raw deal after WW II, all the focus was on Europe. That led right into Vietnam as the US tried to protect French colonial colonies there.

It's a nice little SNAFU left over by Imperial Japan and what was probably some overly greedy Allies dealing with a very weak China 70 years ago.

And it's going to make for one hell of a shit storm over there one of these days.

Do you want US soldiers to potentially DIE to defend THAT??

How about NO. The only reasons to do anything there is to defend a clear US national interest, like oil, or economic interests. That's it. Unfortunately those do exist there.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, don't get confused with defending national interests and being the good guy. That's just stupidity, hypocrisy, and bravado.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
But no, the media have to make it like the Big Bad China is trying to take over South China Sea...man....how stupid those media think people are....wait...apparently bunch of American are that stupid....

Commie china IS TRYING to take over the whole South of china Sea. No one is trying to make it as it is likely. It is happening. See the picture from post #9 or Google "cow tongue line" and see for yourself.

Funny how china is acting all bad ass and tough with smaller neighbors but not a freaking peep when Russian Navy shot at chinese ships and killed chinese. Not a freaking beep about "undisputable territories" of the 600,000 square kilometers of land that Russia took since 1850s after they slaughtered chinese like sheeps.

Pathetic bully = china.
So lets think about this. The Senkaku islands, and Taiwan, were taken from China by force in *two* very bloody wars defending against genocidal aggression by the Japanese (yes there was a first, and second, Sino-Japanese war).

Correction: Senkaku Islands was not taken by Japanese by force. Also, china and Japan are in dispute of East china Sea, not South of china Sea.

Since you brought up bad things did upon china, how about bad things china did to smaller neighbors?

Like how they attacked South Vietnam in 1974 at Paracel Islands while North and South was in the civil war? And now they have the nerve to declare that is theirs.

Like how they attacked unarmed supply ship of Vietnam in 1988 at Spratly Islands?

Like how they bullied and took Scarborough Shoal from Philippines by intimidation, denying poor Philippines fishermen of their livelihood?

Like how they attacked Vietnam in 1979 and were beaten badly by women and old men from the local militia force? They got even by poured poison into all the water wells and slaughtered/took all chickens/cows/all animals from poor local farmers.

Like how they attacked/shot/detained/and demanded ransom money from poor and unarmed fishermen because of the "cow tongue line" (see above).

Do you want me to go on? (see the list I posted about since the creation of commie china in 1949 in post #110)

Commie china should be the last one to cry about bad things did to them.
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Correction: Senkaku Islands was not taken by Japanese by force. Also, china and Japan are in dispute of East china Sea, not South of china Sea.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute#Beginnings


" Inoue Kaoru, the Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs, commented that the islands lay near to the border area with the Qing empire and that they had been given Chinese names. He also cited an article in a Chinese newspaper that had previously claimed that Japan was occupying islands off China's coast. "


"After China lost the war, both countries signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki in April 1895 that stipulated, among other things, that China would cede to Japan "the island of Formosa together with all islands appertaining or belonging to said island of Formosa (Taiwan)"


As far as you comments about the Spratly Islands, that's just another example of there being many sides to the story.

Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Brunei, they all argue about owning these islands. And frankly I don't care which one is right, because I doubt any of them are.

The real reason any of them care is very clear. Oil and minerals. That's it. That's all it is really about. And it's not our (US) oil in any case.

It's absolutely of no concern to the US unless it disrupts trade in the region.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute#Beginnings


" Inoue Kaoru, the Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs, commented that the islands lay near to the border area with the Qing empire and that they had been given Chinese names. He also cited an article in a Chinese newspaper that had previously claimed that Japan was occupying islands off China's coast. "


"After China lost the war, both countries signed the Treaty of Shimonoseki in April 1895 that stipulated, among other things, that China would cede to Japan "the island of Formosa together with all islands appertaining or belonging to said island of Formosa (Taiwan)"


As far as you comments about the Spratly Islands, that's just another example of there being many sides to the story.

Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Brunei, they all argue about owning these islands. And frankly I don't care which one is right, because I doubt any of them are.

The real reason any of them care is very clear. Oil and minerals. That's it. That's all it is really about. And it's not our (US) oil in any case.

It's absolutely of no concern to the US unless it disrupts trade in the region.

I had this discussion before in another thread with another poster. Same argument from him. Formosa and other islands =! Senkaku. Read here = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2355029

Paracel Islands = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Paracel_Islands

Spratly Islands = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2ZrFphSmc (attacked on unarmed supply ship)

Many nations are claiming ownership in the area but bully china is the only one that claims the whole thing and attacked/intimidated smaller neighbors yet would not dare to take on Russia to get back all the lost land. No other nation is acting like china. Those are facts.
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
I had this discussion before in another thread with another poster. Same argument from him. Formosa and other islands =! Senkaku. Read here = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2355029

Paracel Islands = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Paracel_Islands

Spratly Islands = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2ZrFphSmc (attacked on unarmed supply ship)

Bully china is the only one that claims the whole thing and attacked/intimidated smaller neighbors yet would not dare to take on Russia to get back all the lost land. No other nation is acting like china. Those are facts.


Oh, okay, so something that no one has been able to figure out for 70 years was resolved right here on P&N forums of Anandtech....

And lets suppose for a moment you're right.

Then what?

Here's a fact when it comes to vague territorial claims from multiple parties : Might makes right.

This is the way the world works. Japan, China, and maybe Taiwan need to divide the area up peacefully.

Everyone else is SoL.

Doing anything else is just stupid.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Oh, okay, so something that no one has been able to figure out for 70 years was resolved right here on P&N forums of Anandtech....

And lets suppose for a moment you're right.

Then what?

Here's a fact when it comes to vague territorial claims from multiple parties : Might makes right.

This is the way the world works. Japan, China, and maybe Taiwan need to divide the area up peacefully.

Everyone else is SoL.

Doing anything else is just stupid.

Bigger =! winner. Take a look at history book or two and you shall see.

I wouldn't say everyone is SOL. Look at history, whenever china faced a competent military, it would lose and lose badly. I would not brag about china and chinese fighting skill.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Don't get our gov't doing something in the 'national interest' mixed up with doing the right thing, or being the good guy. Don't even be that stupid.

People don't get riled up and angry without thinking they're right about something, and the Chinese are no different.

Here's a little hint for you. In 1937-1945 China lost about 20 Million fighting Japan, and had about 15 million injured. One particular event, known as the "Rape of Nanking", resulted in ~ 300,000 civilians in one city being systematically raped and executed by the Japanese.


Here's one exerpt from someone who was there :

"On December 23rd, Japanese invaders used several dozens of trucks, drove more than one thousand elderly, women and children to the sandbank, and buried them alive in a huge pit dug beforehand. All the victims' hands were tied behind their backs, they could only cry and curse, they had no way to resist."

It looked something like this :

headscut.gif




Why do I mention that?

Because one big item about the South China Sea is the dispute between Japan and China is over a chain of islands called the Senkaku Islands, and adjacent waters.

Not to mention, Taiwan.

So lets think about this. The Senkaku islands, and Taiwan, were taken from China by force in *two* very bloody wars defending against genocidal aggression by the Japanese (yes there was a first, and second, Sino-Japanese war).

China didn't fight Japan being given the islands initially because they were devastated, and dependent on US support. That's pretty much historical fact, in a nutshell.

Now try to empathize, put yourself in China's shoes. I'd be pretty pissed about it, and as my country got stronger, I'd probably expect them to do something to fix it. Wouldn't you? Asia got a raw deal after WW II, all the focus was on Europe. That led right into Vietnam as the US tried to protect French colonial colonies there.

It's a nice little SNAFU left over by Imperial Japan and what was probably some overly greedy Allies dealing with a very weak China 70 years ago.

And it's going to make for one hell of a shit storm over there one of these days.

Do you want US soldiers to potentially DIE to defend THAT??

How about NO. The only reasons to do anything there is to defend a clear US national interest, like oil, or economic interests. That's it. Unfortunately those do exist there.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, don't get confused with defending national interests and being the good guy. That's just stupidity, hypocrisy, and bravado.

China has its own history, far more recent, of brutal human rights violations on its own people. During The Great Leap Forward China killed more of its own citizens than Japan did in both wars combined, even today their military spends more money on suppressing internal rebellion than dealing with external threats.

Kind of puts a damper on any apologist rhetoric like your post. China used up its innocent victim card decades ago. The Chinese government is belligerent, expansionist and brutally suppresses and abuses human rights even among its own citizens. So long as that in the case the US, by virtue of its mere existence, is the good guy. You cannot argue that US human rights abuses in the last century equal those of China (you sound like someone who might try), and if you try, I will actually lol in front of my monitor and gleefully post links.

And as you say, there is oil in the region. You want to talk about bravado, don't delude yourself into thinking that China is on some heroic mission of recovery from international abuse, they're in it for the resources just like everyone else, and they're being far more threatening about it. The heritage and nationalist rhetoric is just bullshit for popular consumption.
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
China has its own history, far more recent, of brutal human rights violations on its own people. During The Great Leap Forward China killed more of its own citizens than Japan did in both wars combined, even today their military spends more money on suppressing internal rebellion than dealing with external threats.

Kind of puts a damper on any apologist rhetoric like your post. China used up its innocent victim card decades ago. The Chinese government is belligerent, expansionist and brutally suppresses and abuses human rights even among its own citizens. So long as that in the case the US, by virtue of its mere existence, is the good guy. You cannot argue that US human rights abuses in the last century equal those of China (you sound like someone who might try), and if you try, I will actually lol in front of my monitor and gleefully post links.

And as you say, there is oil in the region. You want to talk about bravado, don't delude yourself into thinking that China is on some heroic mission of recovery from international abuse, they're in it for the resources just like everyone else, and they're being far more threatening about it. The heritage and nationalist rhetoric is just bullshit for popular consumption.

So we are basically in agreement then. It's all about oil and money.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,370
3,077
146
Bigger =! winner. Take a look at history book or two and you shall see.

I wouldn't say everyone is SOL. Look at history, whenever china faced a competent military, it would lose and lose badly. I would not brag about china and chinese fighting skill.

I wonder who would win... Italy or China?
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
I had this discussion before in another thread with another poster. Same argument from him. Formosa and other islands =! Senkaku. Read here = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2355029

Paracel Islands = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Paracel_Islands

Spratly Islands = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2ZrFphSmc (attacked on unarmed supply ship)

Many nations are claiming ownership in the area but bully china is the only one that claims the whole thing and attacked/intimidated smaller neighbors yet would not dare to take on Russia to get back all the lost land. No other nation is acting like china. Those are facts.

Lol, China just try to reclaim what was historically theirs right around their border, unlike you US invaded and occupied countries half way around the world and people are still dying every freaking day because of your invasion and involvement in their local politic. Yeah China isn't the best behaving country in the world, they are up and coming, they want to reclaim what historically was theirs, and they want to flex muscle and show off a little. But you American got no moral authority to criticize China cause you are 100x worse. You are in every country's politics and everyday life, you are spying on them, invading and occupying them, replacing legit governments with dictators, putting in CIA to incite revolution, you name it.

Yeah true no other nation is acting like China, USA is just 100x worse...yeap those are facts.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Lol, China just try to reclaim what was historically theirs right around their border, unlike you US invaded and occupied countries half way around the world and people are still dying every freaking day because of your invasion and involvement in their local politic. Yeah China isn't the best behaving country in the world, they are up and coming, they want to reclaim what historically was theirs, and they want to flex muscle and show off a little. But you American got no moral authority to criticize China cause you are 100x worse. You are in every country's politics and everyday life, you are spying on them, invading and occupying them, replacing legit governments with dictators, putting in CIA to incite revolution, you name it.

Yeah true no other nation is acting like China, USA is just 100x worse...yeap those are facts.

Since when china had any juridiction on Paracel and Spratly or in control of those areas before anyone else? Links or sources from independence sources or GTFO.

Speaking of reclaim of old land, how about Vietnam reclaims what is now Guangxi and Guangdong because those were the old land of ancient Vietnam? How about Korea reclaim their ancient land that way pass the Yalu river? How about Manchus and Mongols reclaim the whole china as their old land? How about Japan and Britain reclaim parts of china as their old empire? Do you want me to go on? What good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Don't be a hipocrite.

Speaking of reclaim of old land, funny how china and chinese would not dare to take on Russia and take back 600,000 sq. km. of land = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Aigun . Not a freaking word but bend over and take it from behind over and over just like old time.

Not a freaking word but more shame, humiliation, and losing face in public = http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/18/world/asia/russia-china-fishing-vessel/index.html Funny how china tried to start a war when a Japanese Coast Guard tried to detain chinese poachers but not a peep when the Russians shot at your own kind. Why not flex your muscle and show off a little? ROTFLMAO. How sad and pathetic. Shame and humiliation are more like it. All over again.

Speaking of invading, do you see US claims Iraq and Afghan as "undisputable territories" as china is doing with Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjang? Do you see US sends its people to those land to push out the natives and practice culture genocide as china is doing with its smaller neighbors? US is about to leave Iraq and Afghan, do you see chinese invaders leave Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang? Well?

Those are facts, comrade.

I wonder who would win... Italy or China?

Look up and see for yourself. Bigger =! winner.

When china faced competent military forces much smaller nations:

Japan - lost (see post above #163)
Britain - lost (Opium Wars)
Machuria - lost (Quing Dynasty)
Mongolia - lost (Yuan Dynasty)
Vietnam - http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html (just from women and old men of the local militia)
Burma - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Burmese_War_(1765%E2%80%9369)
 
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PieIsAwesome

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2007
4,054
1
0
Lol, China just try to reclaim what was historically theirs right around their border, unlike you US invaded and occupied countries half way around the world and people are still dying every freaking day because of your invasion and involvement in their local politic. Yeah China isn't the best behaving country in the world, they are up and coming, they want to reclaim what historically was theirs, and they want to flex muscle and show off a little. But you American got no moral authority to criticize China cause you are 100x worse. You are in every country's politics and everyday life, you are spying on them, invading and occupying them, replacing legit governments with dictators, putting in CIA to incite revolution, you name it.

Yeah true no other nation is acting like China, USA is just 100x worse...yeap those are facts.

No such thing. Territories are lost and conquered historically. Lost something a century ago? Tough shit. What you have now is what you get.