**U.S. Marine kills wounded insurgent** on-line petition

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
128445.

Bill Van Antwerp


" One cannot violate the "Rules of Engagement" on a daily basis then expect to survive by them. Let the media show our military personnel being killed by men waiving white flags or gathering booby trapped bodies in a place of worship then we'll see how critical people are of this marine's actions. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."



:beer: :beer: :beer:
 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
5,685
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
:roll:

Let's give a free pass to everyone who breaks the law.

Let's empty all of our prisons. Surely everyone in there had good cause to commit their crimes, too.

A free pass like the one we gave to John Kerry for the war crimes he confessed to before the senate?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
<----------Wonders where faking being dead falls in the "Laws of War"?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
<----------Wonders where faking being dead falls in the "Laws of War"?

<----------Wonders where shooting wounded prisoners dead falls in the Geneva Conventions?

 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Link

Iraq Conflict: Following the "Laws of War"?

Stefan Lovgren
for National Geographic News


Iraqi tactics of faking surrenders and using civilians as human shields have rekindled a long-running and boisterous debate over the rules governing armed conflict. Are laws of war relevant when they are so easy to break and so seldom punished? After all, as the saying goes, all is fair in love and war, right?
Wrong, counter academic scholars; without laws of war, conflicts will degenerate into all-out slaughter. "Fundamental standards of humanity in wartime are more relevant than ever," said Anthony Dworkin of the Crimes of War Project, a non-profit group based in Washington, D.C. "The hope is that the worst effects of wars can be contained, and unnecessary harm and atrocities to civilians avoided."


U.S. Marines from the 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment escort captured enemy prisoners of war to a holding area in the desert of Iraq on March 21, 2003, during Operation Iraqi Freedom.


One thing is clear, however, "laws of war" has long been considered a term of art, and not one of absolute precision. The rules are widely open to interpretation. Many experts even suggest that the laws of war provide a code of conduct that has perhaps more political than legal importance.

The rules of war have occupied the attention of scholars, soldiers, and statesmen for thousands of years. But the principles only began to be codified in multilateral agreements about 140 years ago. The 1949 Geneva Conventions provide the most important international agreement on the laws of war.

In addition to rules governing the actual conduct of armed conflict, what is known in legal terms as jus in bello, there are also rules governing the resort to armed conflict?whether one side actually has the right to take military action. This is known in legal terms as jus ad bellum.

When it comes to noncombatants, there are two main principles. First, the military can't intentionally target civilians. Second, if a military knows that striking a military target will kill civilians and cause what's known as collateral damage, it must weigh the importance of the military target against the loss of civilian lives.

Fighting Dirty

Iraqi fighters have pretended to surrender to U.S. soldiers, only to open fire on them moments later. This is clearly an illegal tactic. It's also very effective. The Iraqis are using war's most affordable weapon: deception. "This is far and away their best strategy," said Kenneth Anderson, a law professor at the American University in Washington.

Some people argue that militaries should be entitled to use illegal tactics, especially if they're at a military disadvantage. If German troops were to cross the English Channel during World War II, Winston Churchill believed it would be acceptable for his military to both release poison gas and deprive the people of London the means to escape the city.

During the American Revolution, the British complained that colonists didn't fight fairly. Instead of marching to battle in formation, the patriots often sneaked up on British soldiers and shot at them from behind rocks and trees.

What about when one side is using illegal tactics?shouldn't the other side be allowed to use them as well? No, say experts. "You're not free to ignore the rules even if the other side systematically violates them," said Anderson. "The United States has a greater responsibility to follow the rules of war if Iraq breaks them. If both sides violate the rules with abandon, the horrors of war will be multiplied tenfold."

Using far greater firepower than your enemy is not considered a war crime. In fact, from a humanitarian standpoint, overwhelming firepower on one side is a good thing since it usually keeps civilian casualties down. When two sides are evenly matched, conflicts are stretched out and a large number of civilians may die from starvation or disease.

Dual Purpose

U.S. officials charge that President Saddam Hussein has intentionally placed his military equipment around civilian sites: schools, mosques and hospitals. It's unlikely that any U.S. military personnel will ever be legally accountable for causing civilian casualties in Iraq. But they have an incentive to follow the rules of war for political and humanitarian reasons.

Perhaps the trickiest issue is when targets can be both civilian and military. In the first Gulf War, Washington planners intentionally bombed Iraq's civilian infrastructure, which is specifically banned by the Geneva Conventions, because Iraq's military capacity depended on it. NATO forces bombed Serbian Television during the Kosovo conflict, killing 16 civilians, because Washington claimed it was an instrument of propaganda and repression.

For individual soldiers on the ground, applying the rules of war correctly can be impossible. Distinguishing between civilians and Iraqi gunmen, for example, has been complicated by paramilitary forces who fire on U.S. troops at night and walk around unarmed and in civilian dress during the day.

Finding a Court

The key to keeping the laws of war relevant, scholars maintain, is to ensure that war criminals are caught and tried in court. In the first Gulf War, no Iraqi was ever tried in court for war crimes.

The United States would like to try Saddam Hussein and his regime for war crimes, but finding a suitable forum for such a trial could be a problem. Washington opposes the International Criminal Court (ICC) because, U.S. officials maintain, it does not offer enough safeguards to stop the court from launching politicized prosecutions of Americans. A United Nations tribunal is probably out of the question, because the UN does not support the death penalty. Any U.S. military tribunal, meanwhile, would not be seen as impartial.

The most attractive option, according to experts, would be an ad hoc tribunal inside Iraq, or possibly Kuwait, using some Muslim judges, where war criminals could be tried for crimes dating back to the first Gulf War.

The success in prosecuting war criminals has been poor. "It's basically a history of impunity," said Dworkin. "But in recent years, things have changed with tribunals for ex-Yugoslavia and Rwanda, Sierra Leone and East Timor, and now the ICC. None of these bodies are without flaws but they indicate a growing demand that the world's worst offenders should be held accountable."


 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm for finding out all the facts and letting a judge and jury decide who's guilty and who's not. I have just as much of a problem with the 160 thousand morons who want to ignore anything he might have done because he was "fighting terror" as I do with the people who want to hang him without knowing exactly what went on.

We have a justice system, and it's worked pretty well for a while now. We don't need armchair lawyers and soldiers saying what he did was a human rights violation and he should be hung out to dry, because most of us don't have enough facts to say that. And we sure as hell don't need faux "patriots" waving the flag and blathering about how anything our soldiers might do is excusible because they are fighting "enemy terrorist", because that's the kind of atmosphere where really bad war crimes happen.

Edit: To keep it on topic here, I have a real problem signing a petition that is in favor of excusing actions without knowing all the facts just because it was our soldier that did it. Not saying he's guilty either, but let's let our system sort it out.


Agreed, with the proviso that if found guilty they should throw the book at him to make an example of him.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
The bastard needs to be tried by the Internations Courts for war crimes.

Him and his bastard President Bush and his regime of goons.

Taking a life is a last resort; when someone has been laying there overnight, injured and unarmed, and surrounded by a contingent of military, there's no reason they are to be shot.

Congress won't save him.

I agree. After Abu Gharib, we get this. What if the so-called "terrorist" did exactly the same? Will he not get fried?

I hope this marine also suffers the harshest punishment under the Geneva Conventions.

Beheadings don't count in the muddled Islamic mind? The "so-called""Terrorist"" do much worse.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
If he was unstable and not able to do his job he should not have had a gun in his hands a judgement error of his own and his CO. We all make mistakes but having a gun calls for a cooler head what if a fellow soldier spooked him when he was nervous like that? NOT AN EXCUSE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE PROFESSIONAL RIGHT?
another failure of the so-called best military in the world, maybe if they have a draft the quality of soldier will improve lol.
Petition? No way! try him and if found guilty take appropriate actions.

You could enlist and show them how to do it right.

 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Unfortunately my opinion does not matter on this issue, it needs to be handled by the military. I'm sure they will look into it and take appropriate action just as they did with the prison scandal that resulted in convictions.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I'm for finding out all the facts and letting a judge and jury decide who's guilty and who's not. I have just as much of a problem with the 160 thousand morons who want to ignore anything he might have done because he was "fighting terror" as I do with the people who want to hang him without knowing exactly what went on.

We have a justice system, and it's worked pretty well for a while now. We don't need armchair lawyers and soldiers saying what he did was a human rights violation and he should be hung out to dry, because most of us don't have enough facts to say that. And we sure as hell don't need faux "patriots" waving the flag and blathering about how anything our soldiers might do is excusible because they are fighting "enemy terrorist", because that's the kind of atmosphere where really bad war crimes happen.

Edit: To keep it on topic here, I have a real problem signing a petition that is in favor of excusing actions without knowing all the facts just because it was our soldier that did it. Not saying he's guilty either, but let's let our system sort it out.


Agreed, with the proviso that if found guilty they should throw the book at him to make an example of him.

Oh, certainly. I just don't have a high opinion of adamently jumping to conclusions with very little evidence.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
I signed!

Why? Do you know for a fact that he didn't do anything wrong? Because you might want to share that with the government and the media and save us all a lot of time.

I'm honestly curious.
 

Duckzilla

Senior member
Nov 16, 2004
430
0
0
Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
Won't sign, we are Americans and are supposed to take the high ground...

And meanwhile, the devil-spawn would sneak up behing you and knock you out. They'd tie you up and blindfold you and then they'd stand around and laugh as one of them slits your throat from ear to ear. Your blood would splatter and spurt all around and some may even get on the ceiling.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Great idea Oz, I'll start a sister-petition to free that outstanding Israeli soldier who emptied his rifle into that murderous, terrorist 13 y.o. girl.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com...BNStory/International/

How dare the IDF charge him? These courageous, valiant people get so stressed defending us from evil, they need to..."blow off some steam" every now and then!
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
this petition is absolutely discusting :|

regardless of what happened and how the courts will decide, it is up to them not up to me.
What is truly utterly discusting are people who think that the laws, the rules dont apply to them because the other side is not following them. The whole princible of law and respecting the laws is what defines our society, that is what is supposed to make "us" better than "them. If you really dont think that the laws apply to us, to these soldiers then please leave our society that is based on the rules of laws :|
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
682
0
0
I'm gonna retool something I had posted elsewhere:

We have no right to judge him, according to those who support this petition... but you have a right to acquit him? Unless you have some secret video and evidence the rest of us don't know about, then you are guilty of exactly what you accuse those who would condemn him of. Either all of us have to butt out, including those of you who signed this petition, or all of us have a right to comment on it. You can't have it both ways.

Thousands of letters went to Nixon protesting William Calley's conviction, too... they were wrong, then, and you are wrong now. And no, this situation is not the same to My Lai... as far as severity goes, it's not even close. But what is similar is the refusal, by some of you, to acknowledge any fault in anything "our side" does and a tendency for you to immediately blame everyone and everything else. The reporter is to blame... the insurgents are to blame... the liberals are to blame. That bad things will happen in times of war is inevitable and can, at times, be nothing more than isolated incidents. But this refusal to see the bad, when it does occur, is troubling.

After Abu Ghraib, people like those who signed this petition were quick to excuse what occured, even going so far as to see the reporting of it as the only thing wrong about it (since it weakened morale and made life harder for the soldiers). After the helicopter machine-gun attack on a wedding, again there were arguments and innuendo floating around to try to paint it as some sort of terrorist activity with the wedding just being used to cover it up. After reports of brutal treatment of people who had not been formally accused of anything, let alone tried and convicted, in Gitmo, there was incredulity and anger that anyone would even dare question the justness of any US actions. Why? Because as seen by posters in this thread, and elsewhere... as seen by how people reacted after other such incidents where American military were being scrutinized for their actions and behavior, this is no longer a matter of whether or not you think people are being unfair when they condemn this soldier... it's not even a matter of whether or not you think extentuating circumstances should be taken into account, even if he is proven to have acted wrongfully...

No, many of you see this all as a non-event; as him having done nothing for us to even be concerned about. For some, if not many, of you who sign this petition, punishing this soldier for killing an Iraqi would be like punishing him for killing a cockroach or a rat. The reasons don't matter, the threat posed doesn't matter... no humans were harmed, so let's just all move on. And this is the nature of colonization and occuptation, as it always occurs.

It is possible for you to be for the war, believe it or not, and still acknowledge the wrongness of such things when they occur. You can deal with such things, as they occur, and take measures to limit how often they occur in the future. But far too many of you instead fall into a defensive stance, whenever news like this comes along, and deny the possibility that there can be any vice in a US soldier and any virtue in the enemy. That both groups of people are nothing more, nor less, than human, complete with flaws, is unfathomable to those of this mindset. For them, it is as simple "US" (both as the word and the abbreviation) vs "them;" and we embody all that is good, while "they" embody all that is evil.

And so I'll say it again... this is not the same as My Lai. But so long as continue down the path we seem to be travelling, so long as so many of you would rally around any US soldier who is being accused of having committed illegal acts, regardless of whether or not he/she will ultimately be proven as having been guilty of them, it's only a matter of time until we have another My Lai on our hands. And if/when that happens, it won't just be the new surrogate Calley that is to blame... it won't just be the men under his command nor the men who commanded him. It will be the fault, and shame, of all of us who refuse to live by the principles that this nation was founded on, that all Men, not just those who look and act and believe like us, are created equal; and that all of us, Americans and Iraqis alike, have an unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

cumhail
 

ciba

Senior member
Apr 27, 2004
812
0
71
Originally posted by: judasmachine
You've got to be kidding me? Sign a petition to keep a murderer free?!?!? Give me a break. I'll let you let this guy go if you release Leonard Pelteir, and Mumia Abu-Jamal. There is almost no evidence against these two men. There is a video of your guy doing the deed.

ROFL.

I'm not familiar with Pelteir, but there was quite a bit of evidence against him. The only question remaining in my mind is, why did the only eyewitness that claims he didn't do it (his brother), not testitfy at Mumia's trial?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
This person that was shot tried to kill Marines. Since he never surrenered, he is still the enemy and can legally be shot. The police shoot people all the time that they think are going for a gun.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,861
68
91
www.bing.com
funny how all the same people who complain about the US not taking the high road, are the same ones who complain when servicemen die, usually due to trying to take the high road. Probably the same people who demand $30 an hour factory job yet bought an $11,000 import. The same people who want ultra-low interest rates and a good exchange rate.

The same people who want to have thier cake and eat it too, need to wake up and figure out what the real world is all about.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
funny how all the same people who complain about the US not taking the high road, are the same ones who complain when servicemen die, usually due to trying to take the high road. Probably the same people who demand $30 an hour factory job yet bought an $11,000 import. The same people who want ultra-low interest rates and a good exchange rate.

The same people who want to have thier cake and eat it too, need to wake up and figure out what the real world is all about.

trying to pin this on me or someone else?
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
funny how all the same people who complain about the US not taking the high road, are the same ones who complain when servicemen die, usually due to trying to take the high road. Probably the same people who demand $30 an hour factory job yet bought an $11,000 import. The same people who want ultra-low interest rates and a good exchange rate.

The same people who want to have thier cake and eat it too, need to wake up and figure out what the real world is all about.

The real world is this... This little excursion in Iraq is bullsh*t. Not just for the bs reasons we went in, but what you all think that you're going to accomplish. You think by blowing people up, you're somehow going to magically end terrorism? Oh please.