U.S. Injustice system 12-23-06: U.S. has most prisoners in world - ONE Guard made $250,000 yr w/ OT

[Jaskalas]

This guy should have been executed in the first place, leaving no room for recidivism. Standards must be upheld, and those who break the value of life should not be treated with it. A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

To presume you can toy with them is a pompous attitude that does not save lives. All you?re doing is ASKING for them to do it again by letting them back out, and that is exactly what happens. Execution is not about preventing the first loss of life, it?s about preventing repeated loss of lives committed by the same offender. Which is something you apparently have no regard for.

I?d rather protect the next girl, not the next criminal and that is where our priorities differ.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

 

[Chiller2]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

I disagree, it is the ultimate deterrent because once he is executed he will never commit another crime.

 

[Severian]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

It's a heck of a deterrent to the ones executed.

If it were practiced in a more standardized fashion, with less variability in its application, it might be seen as more of a deterrent to future criminal acts.

But regardless of whether deterrence works, the death penalty ensures that the criminal executed will not commit another crime. And that's good enough for me.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

It may or may not be a deterrent for the first offense but it definitely reduces the chance of committing a/the crime again by 100%. Explain why whenever there is one of these stories in the news about a young person being murdered or molested or both that the person is usually a repeat offender that is now out on parole? Hmm?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Kwaipie

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Craig234
Your lack of respect for human life is part of the problem, a variation of the same problem the killer has, Chiller2.

Part of the problis is simply that in a society of hundreds of millions of people, these things will happen, and anecdotes will lead to bad policies.

Let the right wing take its share of the blame, at its utter disastrous plans for how to deal with prisoners re-entering society - destroying them in prison, failing to prepare them for being out, removing rehabilitation as a function of prison - and then the only answer they have is longer sentences/more executions, which are all ultimately wasteful.

Liberal policies would do a lot better overall, at crime prevention, and rehabilitation; there would be the occassional story like this, but fewer other bad stories. The right oversimplifies the issues and the options. We need the public to demand better policies, not more of the broken policies.

Just as the right doesn't seem to get that the war in Iraq creates terrorists, they don't get that their prison policies increase recidivism, and crime in the first place.

They ask not why the insurgents are fighting them - such as to defend their home from a foreign occupier - but only for how to kill them better. They ask not why people are committing crimes - but only how to imprison them longer.

What the hell does left wing/right wing have anything to do with the topic at hand? Some of the most violent places in the country are the bread and butter of the Democrat party, so take your partisan bullshit and cram it back up your ass. You're as bad as any right wing nutjob around here.

QFT

I live about 20 minutes from Baltimore City, which I believe is either number 1 or number 2 in the country as far as dangerous cities go. Guess what party is and has been in charge of that city for years, Democrats. Guess what party is and has been in charge in Maryland for years, Democrats. How you can manage to blame this on Republicans I don't know, but you are showing your true colors as a left wing wacko.

As to the OP, I'm pretty conservative and I think this guy should have never gotten out of jail. I'd have to agree with the more liberal members of the board on this one, I think it would be better to legalize a lot of the drugs that are out there and let law enforcement focus on the more serious stuff.

Baltimore is not even on the list.

http://www.governmentguide.com/community_and_home/morganmostdangerouscities.adp

#6
R.I.F.

Wow I missed it. Yet it not second or first as described by the poster.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was referring to cities with 500k+ population. I was still off, we are 3rd. http://www.morganquitno.com/cit05pop.htm#500,000+

Anyways, 1st, 3rd, or 6th, my point still stands. Most cities are run by Democrats, and usually cities are where the crime and poverty is. But, this is society's problem, not just the Democrats.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

It may or may not be a deterrent for the first offense but it definitely reduces the chance of committing a/the crime again by 100%. Explain why whenever there is one of these stories in the news about a young person being murdered or molested or both that the person is usually a repeat offender that is now out on parole? Hmm?

Generally those whose crimes qualify them for the death penalty have an alternative sentence of life in prison with no parole.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

It may or may not be a deterrent for the first offense but it definitely reduces the chance of committing a/the crime again by 100%. Explain why whenever there is one of these stories in the news about a young person being murdered or molested or both that the person is usually a repeat offender that is now out on parole? Hmm?

Generally those whose crimes qualify them for the death penalty have an alternative sentence of life in prison with no parole.

Have you read the OP?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

What the hell does left wing/right wing have anything to do with the topic at hand? Some of the most violent places in the country are the bread and butter of the Democrat party, so take your partisan bullshit and cram it back up your ass. You're as bad as any right wing nutjob around here.

The points I made are my view of a liberal approach - they are not the same as what the democrats normally do now.

Most democratd are not 'liberal', I know of pretty much nowhere now doing things as I described.

My state, California, is a pretty democratic state despite our generally poor choices of governors, but it's a very pro-caital-punishment state as well.

In fact, we foolishly voted out a really great governor who had helped California be the 'Golden State', following Earl Warren, Pat Brown - over capital punishment.

The result was historically bad for the world - they elected Ronald Reagan, giving him the office to run for president from, beginning the last 25 disastrous years for the US.

The nation's historic shift to the right, to support for terrorists and death squads and corruption, for huge debts, against the middle class, point to Reagan.

(Reagan, as governor, also ended the liberal program of free college for the public, shutting down the last one in the nation of the many liberals had set up).

Pat Brown was a popular governor, who acted on principle against capital punishment and the voters reacted strongly.

Society is not yet mature/informed enough to choose better crime policies, and it's paying the price, with the highest imprisonment rate in the world, and among the worst crime.

There's no end in sight, but hopefully at some point people will develop a better understanding. And, in my view, better morals on execution, like the rest of the world.

 

[KAZANI]

Originally posted by: CPA
I have a better idea than your touchy, feely crap. Execute the waste of life. Bam - no dead 16 year old girl.

We are talking about reality here CPA, not that wretched, bloody FPS world you live in.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: BoberFett

What the hell does left wing/right wing have anything to do with the topic at hand? Some of the most violent places in the country are the bread and butter of the Democrat party, so take your partisan bullshit and cram it back up your ass. You're as bad as any right wing nutjob around here.

The points I made are my view of a liberal approach - they are not the same as what the democrats normally do now.

Most democratd are not 'liberal', I know of pretty much nowhere now doing things as I described.

My state, California, is a pretty democratic state despite our generally poor choices of governors, but it's a very pro-caital-punishment state as well.

In fact, we foolishly voted out a really great governor who had helped California be the 'Golden State', following Earl Warren, Pat Brown - over capital punishment.

The result was historically bad for the world - they elected Ronald Reagan, giving him the office to run for president from, beginning the last 25 disastrous years for the US.

The nation's historic shift to the right, to support for terrorists and death squads and corruption, for huge debts, against the middle class, point to Reagan.

(Reagan, as governor, also ended the liberal program of free college for the public, shutting down the last one in the nation of the many liberals had set up).

Pat Brown was a popular governor, who acted on principle against capital punishment and the voters reacted strongly.

Society is not yet mature/informed enough to choose better crime policies, and it's paying the price, with the highest imprisonment rate in the world, and among the worst crime.

There's no end in sight, but hopefully at some point people will develop a better understanding. And, in my view, better morals on execution, like the rest of the world.

Spin all you want, but you tried to lay the blame on the right, while it has been the left that has been running the majority of the big cities for years.

On another note, since when does the right support terrorists and death squads? You would probably get much better responses to your arguments if you refrained from making these radical off the wall statements.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JD50
On another note, since when does the right support terrorists and death squads?

You would probably get much better responses to your arguments if you refrained from making these radical off the wall statements.

Helloe McFly, anybody home???

Ever heard of Iraq & Afghanistan???

 

[KAZANI]

...Iran-Contra?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: JD50

Spin all you want, but you tried to lay the blame on the right, while it has been the left that has been running the majority of the big cities for years.

The democrats are not the role model for my position at all. But it's the right wing who has the strongest ideological opposition to my position.

Democrats are not doing well on this issue; the right is fighitng to keep it that way.

[]q]On another note, since when does the right support terrorists and death squads? You would probably get much better responses to your arguments if you refrained from making these radical off the wall statements.
[/quote]

You really need to learn more history. For just some examples:

- The US was training and sponsoring south vietnamese terrorists against North Viet Nam before the Gulf of Tonkin resolution.

- The US created and sponsored a terrorist force, the Contras, in Nicaragua.

- The US allied with and helped the governments with death squads in places like El Salvador in the 1980's.

- As we speak, the US is harboring the suspected terrorist for bombinb a civilian airliner in Cuba, simply because he's on 'our side'.

- The US sent terrorists to Cuba in the 1960's.

There are many more examples, and even more when you include things like setting up right-wing dictators with brutal regimes, like the secret police we set up for Iran's Shah.

What's 'radical' is hiding the truth, not telling it.

 

[dmcowen674]

12-9-2006 U.S. has most prisoners in world

Tough sentencing laws, record numbers of drug offenders and high crime rates have contributed to the United States having the largest prison population and the highest rate of incarceration in the world

A U.S. Justice Department report released on November 30 showed that a record 7 million people -- or one in every 32 American adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole at the end of last year. Of the total, 2.2 million were in prison or jail.

China ranks second with 1.5 million prisoners, followed by Russia with 870,000.

Julie Stewart, president of the group Families Against Mandatory Minimums, cited the Justice Department report and said drug offenders are clogging the U.S. justice system.

"Why are so many people in prison?

Blame mandatory sentencing laws and the record number of nonviolent drug offenders subject to them," she said.

Drug offenders account for about 2 million of the 7 million in prison, on probation or parole

"The United States has 5 percent of the world's population and 25 percent of the world's incarcerated population. We rank first in the world in locking up our fellow citizens," said Ethan Nadelmann of the Drug Policy Alliance, which supports alternatives in the war on drugs.

"We now imprison more people for drug law violations than all of western Europe, with a much larger population, incarcerates for all offenses."
=======================================
The War on Drugs is actually "The War on Citizens".

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: BoberFett
End the ridiculous war on drugs so law enforcement can focus on real crime. Even after taking into account the cost of drug rehab programs, we'd be far ahead of where we are now. The police, courts and prisons are overburdended with people whose only crime was ingesting a mind altering substance and offending the sensibilities of uptight assholes.

What, you'd rather have a pothead living next door than a child molestor? Crazy!

seriously, the pothead would never be responsible enough to keep an eye on your kids while you run down the street to grab some ciggy's and a 40

 

[keird]

In regards to the death penalty, I've looked a this site from time-to-time.
nullprodeathpenalty.com

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: KAZANI

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
We lock up Millionaires like Martha Stewart while releasing child killers like this guy below.

Are you implying that rich folks should not go to prison?

No, simply stating that in many cases the waste of taxpayer money does not benefit anyone when real child killers are let lose.

1: We have a very serious issue of judges letting those who rape children or others go free. Repeat offenders are far too common, and the system doesn?t care who it lets back onto the street to rape/kill again.
2: The "war on drugs" should be retooled to go after the sellers, and ignore the users.
3: We have a lot a prisoners, just shows how broken the society is. If we let them out, they'd be free to commit as much crime as they see fit.

 

[Jhhnn]

From JD50-

"On another note, since when does the right support terrorists and death squads? You would probably get much better responses to your arguments if you refrained from making these radical off the wall statements."

Remember Chile, Argentina, El Salvador? And contrary to what the Bushists claim, they're using the Shia in Iraq the same way, to quell the Sunni insurgents with death squads... They even have a name for it, the "Salvador Option".

All of which is OT, but illustrates that the Right is both bloodthirsty and sanctimonious at the same time...

From Chiller2, earlier in the thread-

"THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A REFORMED RAPIST!I say this after working over 12yrs as a correctional officer. I would trust a murderer, thief or drug dealer back on the streets before I would a rapists.They can change, a rapists cannot period. Its like an alcoholic and booze they will always crave it."

There are millions of Alcoholics Anonymous members who would dispute your claim. I'm one of them, having had my last drink on June 26, 1987...

If what you said were true, then all rapists would be repeat offenders, which is simply not the case. Dave's opinion, like that of many others, is formed on the basis of a single, truly horrendous incident, ignoring the simple fact that thousands of released rapists live peaceably in the community at large... I suspect that while some are, as you claim, incorrigible, most can and would respond positively to therapy, if the system were designed to actually help offenders rejoin society as productive members...

And if the truth were known, it's the same wingnuts calling for people to be locked up forever who are also whining about paying taxes to support such a system- can't have it both ways, except in a rightwing fantasy world...

 

[Craig234]

I enjoyed JD50's post thanking me for informing him of some of the US terrorism he was unaware of. Oh, wait.

He crosses a line from uninformed to evildoer when he is led to the water of the truth of the evil in policies his nation does and he turns away. That's willful wrongdoing.

He's clearly not interested in any honest discussion or the truth.

I wonder how these right-wing supporters for capital punishment would like the principle to be applied to this nation for things like Viet Nam. I want accountability for wrongdoing, whether it's someone killing a child in America, or voting for killing a child overseas by our military unnecessarily. Both deserve punishment and for other innocents to be protected.

Unfortunately, might makes right for these people, and the arrogance of power leaves them free to jack off to the sound of our bombs showing our 'strength' without any international police force to knock on their door and haul them out. These foolish ideologues corrupt the US, poisoning it into a nation of killers blinded by the fact it's too widespread to notice.

We can use greater awareness of the effects of our actions, to help these people get past the lies they've fallen for to dehumanize the targets of our violence for our own benefit. It's ironic - the greater violence we do, the greater the need for the ideologues to demonize the victims, because the alternative is to face his own wrongdoing.

So they MUST HAVE DESERVED IT and DON'T YOU DARE ASK ANY QUESTIONS which might make them face uncomfortable truths.

 

[bobdelt]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
A policy of live and let live for those who do not value life is a horrible way to tolerate their violence and invite further innocent life to be lost, such as this girl.

All evidence points to the fact that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals.

A significant amount of crimes are committed by repeat offenders... Now, how can they repeat that offense when theyre dead?

Also with the prison stats... that was how many people who have been to jail this year, not who were in jail. So that includes minor offences that include a night or even a couple of hours in jail, or were just on probation... kind of messes up the results more likely.

Also, perhaps the study means that we have better police enforcement than other countries? Maybe our cops are better at catching criminals and punishing them? There are a lot of variables that need to be considered before they came to that conclusion.

 

[dmcowen674]

12-23-2006 Overtime gives prison guards fat salary

About 6,000 California corrections officers earned more than $100,000 in the last fiscal year thanks to overtime work in the strained prison system, and one brought in more than a quarter of a million.

The biggest payout to a corrections officer for the fiscal year that ended in June was $252,570, which went to a lieutenant.

That's more than the salaries of the corrections chief, who makes $225,000, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who declined what would be a $206,500 paycheck this year.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
12-23-2006 Overtime gives prison guards fat salary

About 6,000 California corrections officers earned more than $100,000 in the last fiscal year thanks to overtime work in the strained prison system, and one brought in more than a quarter of a million.

The biggest payout to a corrections officer for the fiscal year that ended in June was $252,570, which went to a lieutenant.

That's more than the salaries of the corrections chief, who makes $225,000, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who declined what would be a $206,500 paycheck this year.

I really hope that you are not somehow laying blame on the corrections officers for working overtime and making that much money.


Edit - Your title is tad bit misleading "guards make $250,000 a year", but somehow you are allowed to get away with anything around here :roll:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
12-23-2006 Overtime gives prison guards fat salary

About 6,000 California corrections officers earned more than $100,000 in the last fiscal year thanks to overtime work in the strained prison system, and one brought in more than a quarter of a million.

The biggest payout to a corrections officer for the fiscal year that ended in June was $252,570, which went to a lieutenant.

That's more than the salaries of the corrections chief, who makes $225,000, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who declined what would be a $206,500 paycheck this year.

I really hope that you are not somehow laying blame on the corrections officers for working overtime and making that much money.


Edit - Your title is tad bit misleading "guards make $250,000 a year", but somehow you are allowed to get away with anything around here :roll:

Is the lieutenant not a guard?

I blame everyone including myself and you for allowing this to happen.

 

[imported_Aelius]

The problem is that Correctional Officers are heavily overworked and "forced" to do double and sometimes tripple shifts in a row. You don't know tired until you have done a double 12 hour shift. I can't even imagine a tripple. Most I worked in one day was almost 18 hours and that screwed me up for weeks. Although I only had to deal with pissed off government employees and not inmates.

Anyway the system in place is what is causing all this to occur. It sounds like Arnie is going down the right path. Sorta. I don't agree with him building more prisons.

He as governor, the executive, has the power to annul the laws used to convict non violent drug offenders. Thereby releasing them and and clearing their records.

Naturally this would provoke a response from Washington. Not that they have ANY power to do anything about it what so ever. Including congress.