U.S. court orders Odyssey Marine to turn over found treasure to Spain

[glenn1]

Regardless of how one might feel about Spain's claim, it's probably fair to say that there won't be any future discoveries for them to seize. Why bother going out to look for shipwrecks and sunken treasure if the government will just take it all? The fable of the Golden Goose comes to mind.

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[Andrew1990]

Isnt there a international law stating that abandoned property on the ocean can be claimed? Also, this is highly unfair to the treasure finders, Spain is just lazy.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Regardless of how one might feel about Spain's claim, it's probably fair to say that there won't be any future discoveries for them to seize. Why bother going out to look for shipwrecks and sunken treasure if the government will just take it all? The fable of the Golden Goose comes to mind.

story link

Your logic is flawed. The treasures that justify the cost of searching by one group, are not worth searching for by the group who has the right to the treasures.

You're simply trying to insinuate right-wing ideology (screw the government, go go scavenger entrpeneurs!) into the issue.

Who knows, the scavengers may have a legal case, but not for the reason you give.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Andrew1990
Isnt there a international law stating that abandoned property on the ocean can be claimed? Also, this is highly unfair to the treasure finders, Spain is just lazy.

You're anthropomorphizing a state. The issue isn't the leader of Spain wanting to play his Xbox instead of doing the hard work of diving after treasure. They pay someone to do it.

 

[Andrew1990]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Andrew1990
Isnt there a international law stating that abandoned property on the ocean can be claimed? Also, this is highly unfair to the treasure finders, Spain is just lazy.

You're anthropomorphizing a state. The issue isn't the leader of Spain wanting to play his Xbox instead of doing the hard work of diving after treasure. They pay someone to do it.

I know, I was just being sarcastic there. Spain probably didnt see a point in securing the treasure at that point in time.

 

[tvarad]

I would have thought that there would be claimants in South America from where the ships set sail with the riches. As well, if you read this version of events, at the very least, Britain can claim it as war booty, if you apply the letter of the law!

 

[sandorski]

Some kind of Reward/Finders Fee should apply.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Your logic is flawed. The treasures that justify the cost of searching by one group, are not worth searching for by the group who has the right to the treasures.

You're simply trying to insinuate right-wing ideology (screw the government, go go scavenger entrpeneurs!) into the issue.

Who knows, the scavengers may have a legal case, but not for the reason you give.

Who decides who has a right to the treasure? In your mind, the state's interests always trump that of individuals or corporations. How can you assert that anyone in Spain, or the Spanish government, has any more right to the treasure than the people who found it? No one in Spain who was involved is still alive, nor is it even the same government it was when the ship went down. Thus, any entity which may have ever "owned" the ship or the treasure no longer exists and any assignment of property rights to the current residents of the Iberian peninsula is entirely arbitrary.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Craig234
Your logic is flawed. The treasures that justify the cost of searching by one group, are not worth searching for by the group who has the right to the treasures.

You're simply trying to insinuate right-wing ideology (screw the government, go go scavenger entrpeneurs!) into the issue.

Who knows, the scavengers may have a legal case, but not for the reason you give.

Who decides who has a right to the treasure? In your mind, the state's interests always trump that of individuals or corporations. How can you assert that anyone in Spain, or the Spanish government, has any more right to the treasure than the people who found it? No one in Spain who was involved is still alive, nor is it even the same government it was when the ship went down. Thus, any entity which may have ever "owned" the ship or the treasure no longer exists and any assignment of property rights to the current residents of the Iberian peninsula is entirely arbitrary.

Your reading comprehension is a problem. You ignored the point I actually made about your logic, and made up a position I did not take.

For example, let's compare what you say I said:

"...the state's interests always trump that of individuals or corporations..."

And what I actually said:

"Who knows, the scavengers may have a legal case, but not for the reason you give. "

Could you have got the post more wrong?

What a waste of my time to have written you the post.

 

[dawp]

where was the treasure found? If it was in spanish waters, and it could have been since it was near Gibraltar. If it was i would think that would be a problem for the treasure hunters. If it was in international waters then spain should be SOL.


Something simular happened when the SS Central America was found, Except it was Insurance companies that sued. that ended with the finders getting 92% and the companies getting 8%.

 

[Nebor]

Ridiculous. This kind of court decision could put an end to treasure hunting entirely, and in these economic times we cannot afford to lose an industry that employs over 2 million Americans.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Ridiculous. This kind of court decision could put an end to treasure hunting entirely, and in these economic times we cannot afford to lose an industry that employs over 2 million Americans.

Not to mention that many of them are scientists. If the treasure industry goes bust, where will all the marine biologists work?

 

[aldamon]

Won't they just stop publicizing big finds and just melt it down or stash some before announcing what they've found? To me, the biggest losers will eventually be the museums and historians that want to preserve these treasures.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Nebor
Ridiculous. This kind of court decision could put an end to treasure hunting entirely, and in these economic times we cannot afford to lose an industry that employs over 2 million Americans.

Not to mention that many of them are scientists. If the treasure industry goes bust, where will all the marine biologists work?

Gosh, you two just crack me up.


:thumbsup:

 

[BoomerD]

Fuck Spain. This ship was allegedly lost for 200 years...they did nothing to find the cargo, paid not a single dime to help find it, raise it, or transport it.

Free game for the finders.

IMO, the same for the occasional shipwreck in the Caribbean. The loot goes to those who put forth the effort, time, and costs to find it.

If the cargo came from South/Central America, the local governments there have as much of a claim against any treasure as Spain. After all, it was taken from their countries...most likely under extreme duress. I'm sure the native peoples didn't just say,"Here, enslave us, kill us, take our pretty shiny rocks."

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Fuck Spain. This ship was allegedly lost for 200 years...they did nothing to find the cargo, paid not a single dime to help find it, raise it, or transport it.

Free game for the finders.

IMO, the same for the occasional shipwreck in the Caribbean. The loot goes to those who put forth the effort, time, and costs to find it.

If the cargo came from South/Central America, the local governments there have as much of a claim against any treasure as Spain. After all, it was taken from their countries...most likely under extreme duress. I'm sure the native peoples didn't just say,"Here, enslave us, kill us, take our pretty shiny rocks."

Spain's been hit really hard by the economic downturn, that probably has a lot to do with them aggressively pursuing this.

You'll probably come home one night and find the local Spanish Council General rifling through your loose change jar.

 

[silverpig]

1. They should be able to keep the treasure.
2. The Brits should lay claim as well if Spain wins.
3. It sounds like the treasure belonged to private individuals and not necessarily Spain itself.
4. If they ARE ordered to turn it over, they should ship it across the Atlantic and dump it overboard.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Fuck Spain. This ship was allegedly lost for 200 years...they did nothing to find the cargo, paid not a single dime to help find it, raise it, or transport it.

Free game for the finders.

IMO, the same for the occasional shipwreck in the Caribbean. The loot goes to those who put forth the effort, time, and costs to find it.

If the cargo came from South/Central America, the local governments there have as much of a claim against any treasure as Spain. After all, it was taken from their countries...most likely under extreme duress. I'm sure the native peoples didn't just say,"Here, enslave us, kill us, take our pretty shiny rocks."

Spain's been hit really hard by the economic downturn, that probably has a lot to do with them aggressively pursuing this.

You'll probably come home one night and find the local Spanish Council General rifling through your loose change jar.

I've got a sneaking suspicion he's been siphoning gas from my lawn tractor.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Fuck Spain. This ship was allegedly lost for 200 years...they did nothing to find the cargo, paid not a single dime to help find it, raise it, or transport it.

Free game for the finders.

IMO, the same for the occasional shipwreck in the Caribbean. The loot goes to those who put forth the effort, time, and costs to find it.

If the cargo came from South/Central America, the local governments there have as much of a claim against any treasure as Spain. After all, it was taken from their countries...most likely under extreme duress. I'm sure the native peoples didn't just say,"Here, enslave us, kill us, take our pretty shiny rocks."

Spain's been hit really hard by the economic downturn, that probably has a lot to do with them aggressively pursuing this.

You'll probably come home one night and find the local Spanish Council General rifling through your loose change jar.

Such a treasure haul would be expected to be placed within a museum; not sold off by the Spanish government.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Fuck Spain. This ship was allegedly lost for 200 years...they did nothing to find the cargo, paid not a single dime to help find it, raise it, or transport it.

Free game for the finders.

IMO, the same for the occasional shipwreck in the Caribbean. The loot goes to those who put forth the effort, time, and costs to find it.

If the cargo came from South/Central America, the local governments there have as much of a claim against any treasure as Spain. After all, it was taken from their countries...most likely under extreme duress. I'm sure the native peoples didn't just say,"Here, enslave us, kill us, take our pretty shiny rocks."

Spain's been hit really hard by the economic downturn, that probably has a lot to do with them aggressively pursuing this.

You'll probably come home one night and find the local Spanish Council General rifling through your loose change jar.

Such a treasure haul would be expected to be placed within a museum; not sold off by the Spanish government.

They'll keep some of it to display a couple of their own museums but the bulk would almost certainly be auctioned off to other museums and private collectors. Displaying the entire treasure would be incredibly difficult/expensive and a waste of resources given that a lot of it will be identical.

 

[StageLeft]

Fugging horsesh*t finding. I can steal your car and there is a statute of limitations of some number of years but if you crash a ship and a couple centuries later I find it I have to give it back? Screw that.

Such a treasure haul would be expected to be placed within a museum; not sold off by the Spanish government.

Surely they don't want to put half a million gold coins in display cabinets.

 

[OutHouse]

fuck spain, if they wanted it that bad they should have gone out looking for it.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Fugging horsesh*t finding. I can steal your car and there is a statute of limitations of some number of years

I don't think that is true, sir.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Your reading comprehension is a problem. You ignored the point I actually made about your logic, and made up a position I did not take.

For example, let's compare what you say I said:

"...the state's interests always trump that of individuals or corporations..."

And what I actually said:

"Who knows, the scavengers may have a legal case, but not for the reason you give. "

Could you have got the post more wrong?

What a waste of my time to have written you the post.

Your literacy is a problem. I hadn't even posted yet, so I'm not sure how my logic was questioned. And you are the one who brought ideology in, so I pointed out how yours doesn't apply in this case.

 

[tk149]

The article is a bit fuzzy on the actual ruling. It sounds like the judge is just saying that the US doesn't have jurisdiction, so he sent it to a Spanish court. If so, then Oddyssey can then argue their case in a Spanish court.

Hope Spain loses.