Two US Jewish advocasy groups debate inside the Israeli partliment

[EagleKeeper]

Maybe FGD, Netanyuhu fools you, but the rest of the world sides with the Abbas boycott of a charade. And that settlement freeze demand will keep coming at Israel and keep coming until Israel comes back to the peace table with no incentive to stall. After all, it was at the peace table at Annapolis where Israel lost all world cred.

Proof?

The world saw the farce of the settlement freeze that Abbas asked for in order to restart the talks.
They saw that Israel called the Palestinian bluff and the Palestinians folded.
Then people like you started to say that Israel had no intentions, so why should the Palestinians show up.

Now WikiLeaks shows that the Palestinians were running an elaborate con game.
Abbas knew that he didnot have the authority, but he kept up the pretense.
so now the world knows that Abbas carries no weight and was not trying to negotiate with Israel but trying to manipulate for PR advantages.

Abbas did not have the authority to actually negotiate any peace; it was a sham.
How far back does that sham go. You want to bring up Annapolis- nothing was accomplished there except a bunch of PR handshakes and a promise to look at the problems. No solutions came out of Annapolis.

The world is willing to recognize a Palestinian state, include Isreal. It is the Palestinians that can not figure out how to be a state; speaking with forked tongues, sending a figured head in for false negotiations, having an elected leadership that does not want peace and is adament on the destruction of Israel.

The settlement freeze is a red hearing. What difference now than last year. The Palestinains now publicly can not show up represented by Abbas. The world knows he is unauthorized to deal.

Israel called the Palestinian bluff on the freeze. Maybe now it is the Palestinians to put forward something that ISrael wants to try to get Israel to thetable. Then if that fails, the pissing match is eve. something like peace - cessation of attacks against Israel from area under Palestinian control.

Wait, that was also tried in Gaza and Hamas failed there before the ink was actually dry!

So what CAN the Palestinians offer (and actaully deliver) to get Israel to the table?

 

[Lemon law]

As Common Courtesy exploits a fictional Abbas has no authority to deal catch 22, maybe its time to point out the President of the USA has no such authority to deal also.

Because just last January the GOP threatened to not ratify the Nuclear Arms reduction treaty Obama had negotiated and signed with Russia. As we know, the GOP had the votes to prevent the Senate from ratifying the treaty but instead decided to support the treaty,

Or we can flask back to the end of WW1 and talk about the President Wilson signed treaty to create the League of Nations. And even if the rest of the world was thrilled with the Wilson inspired treaty, it ended up that our own US senate refused to ratify that treaty. Making it null and void in the USA.

In a similar manner, Abbas and at the time Olmert had similar authority, Because they still had to take any treaty back to their own people and get approval. And even if Abbas was willing to make very deep concessions to Israel, he was hoping the resultant Palestinian state would be enough to win enough yes votes to win in a up and down vote. And despite the fact that Hamas in Gaza does not exactly support Abbas, its still the position of Hamas that they will allow the people of Gaza to ratify or reject any Fatah negotiated settlement.

And in fact Common Courtesy is wrong, Because Abbas has at least as much authority to negotiate treaties as the President of the USA.

And if Common Courtesy thinks the larger world buys his bullshit, he need only look at the UN resolution demanding an Israeli settlement freeze that failed even though 14 out of 15 members of the security council voted against Israel. Only the USA vetoed it to save Israeli butt, but that demand for a settlement freeze is going to keep coming, and one day soon, Israel may discover not even the USA will save their butt.

As for Abbas, this is probably his swan song, at 76 he is too old, but lots of younger and technically competent people in Fatah will take over.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The WikiLeaks stated the Abbas did not even show at the table because the Palestinians knew that he was impotent.

Why did the Palestinians ask for the freeze which was granted and not show up.
that is a question that the world asked; you could not answer and the Palestinians refused to answer. It took Wiki to show that the Pals did not expect Israel to freeze and that once frozen, the Abbas HAD NO AUTHORITY to negotiate.

That is different than having to have something ratified after negotiations.
The person that does the negotiations has the authority to try to get something accomplished.

Abbas did not; it was a bluff, they were called and folded.

We do not know at this time how far back this lack of authority extends - possibly from when Hamas won the elections.

A settlement freeze will not do anything; the Palestinians had it and did nothing.
They had a second chance and did nothing. what will a third time do?

It has been shown that the emperor has no clothes; that makes it difficult to take him seriously.

Now if the Palestinians will appoint a younger person with the proper authority, something may be done to actual get a peace process rolling. the destruction of the Arab League by internal revolts will actually have a better impact - remove the hard lines with ego issues with people that do not hate Israel

 

[theeedude]

AIPAC and Israel are not affiliated in any way.

what aipac does is support israel whatever her actions are.


Israel obviously enjoys support by AIPAC but I dont see Israel having a problem with jews joining whatever it wants.


secondly, that was an example that not only jews support israel/aipac

Who was saying that? You keep refuting this strawman.

Why are they having congressional hearings on what organizations Jews or gentiles in America join? It's none of their business.

 

[Freshgeardude]

President of the USA has no such authority to deal also.

actually, you are wrong.

the president has the duty to deal with treaties. it is his responsibility to be at the table for negotiations.

the senate ratifies the treaty making it acceptable to the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Clause

Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, includes the Treaty Clause, which empowers the President of the United States to propose and chiefly negotiate agreements between the United States and other countries, which become treaties between the United States and other countries after the advice and consent of a supermajority of the United States Senate.


[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur.... ”

any more proof you look at the world through a peep hole?

 

[Freshgeardude]

LOL, an apartheid state thinks it can tell Jews in America what to think and what groups to associate with. They can go screw themselves

you wrote that.

Yes, the only lobbying in the US comes from Jews...

Fucking retarded piece of trash...

that was a response.

still following?

I responded to that, with the picture.

Who was saying that? You keep refuting this strawman.

and wow, truely israel is an apartheid state, telling jews in america what to do.

Why are they having congressional hearings on what organizations Jews or gentiles in America join? It's none of their business.

Since when can people not have opinions?

to the right-wing government in israel, obviously a left wing advocacy group is a problem.


are they complaining? sure why not.


are they acting out on it by persecuting, threatening, etc?? no

so there is no issue.

its people with opinions expressing just that.


and from the article in the OP

Shlomo Avineri, a political scientist at Hebrew University who did not attend the hearing, said J Street was in a problematic position because “it is very difficult to be an advocacy group while criticizing the subject of your advocacy. It is difficult to say we are the greatest supporters of Israel but on every issue that arises we are on the other side.”

that is exactly what they are talking about in the hearings.

 

[Matt1970]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee its been proven time after time, funny, I have not yet seen it proven for the first time yet.

But Gee I now understand, every Palestinian without exception is rotten and without hope or redeemable. Just what Hitler said about the Jews. And why Matt1970 is at it, every single Jew in Israel must be wonderful without exception. Including the Israeli president who is now in jail for rape, ex Israeli PM Olmert who had to was forced out because of political corruption, and especially the wonderful Israeli guy who murdered Rabin. And lets not forget that wonderful Israel who walking into a mosque with a fully automatic weapon and opened fire on those at prayer. So please tell us Matt 1970 that if four Jews are like that, all Jews must be like that. After all, its about as valid as you saying all Palestinians are like that.

Or maybe Matt1970, you can come to the realization that the Palestinian Israeli problems we have today far pre-dates the 1948 formation of Israel, there has been much wrong and violence on all sides, there is no real way to have a final solution to the Palestinian or Jewish problem, by hoping that one group or another will grow gills and swim away.

That is why, some final peace depends on either having a separate Palestinian State or in the Assimilation of the Palestinian people with equal rights back into Israel.

Israeli hard liners do not want either of those two alternatives, but the days of delaying are rapidly running out as world pressure against Israel keeps growing at an ever increasing rate.

No. Every leader for Hamas since its inception has openly called for the complete annihilation of Israel. That is not a peaceful people.

 

[Matt1970]

So you Israeli fan clubbers deny the indisputable fact that the Israeli has endorsed the Nazi concept of running concentration camps and denying Palestinians equal rights on the basis of hereditary guilt.

I have no problem in saying both Arabs and Palestinians have not screwed up also, but still, long term, its up to Israel to admit their past sins too.

We cannot change a rotten past, we can only change the existing future. Israel is increasingly skating on ever thinner ice, as the international Israeli rep is going into the toilet at an ever faster rate, smell the coffee, the past year has been nothing but an Israeli disaster. As its lost its last two key mid-east allies in Egypt and Turkey, with 14 out of 15 UN security council members voting against Israel, and still Israeli is still stupid enough to refuse the universal international demand for a settlement freeze.

Its never been my position that this is a situation where it Arabs v Israelis where only one side can win.
Why can't we find that win win for all sides?

How about the right to live? Your arguement is pointless. Israel has show countless signs of working with Palestinians and they always return the favor with rockets and suicide bombers. Before you go defending Palestine to the ends of the earth, do you realize that a lot of those people are born and bread to kill anything that isn't Muslim? Hamas will continually win elections over there with one solgan "Remove Israel off the face of the planet"