Two percent of high school students identify as transgender, CDC report finds

[UglyCasanova]

Don't you think the 35% bullying rate and 35% suicide rate is in anyway significant? I've said multiple times I don't think steering small children in such ways is a good idea. But Jesus Fucking Christ dude, we need to lay off the stigma. Until we do that we can't even begin to quantify the situation? I agree putting it off until people figure themselves out is generally good, but we can't just bully people into the ground either. I think dismissing it as a fad is not helpful.

Who is advocating for bullying? Yes that’s significant and needs to be stopped, but that’s a separate issue than whether they should receive medical treatment.

 

[PJFrylar]

Who is advocating for bullying? Yes that’s significant and needs to be stopped, but that’s a separate issue than whether they should receive medical treatment.

My point is, even before I started to get rude, you have never addressed the point. It's been brought up multiple times in the thread, not only by me, but others. Not even once. It seems like a subject you don't even want to engage in, that's why I got nasty.

Edit: FYI.. I believe this post was the first time you even acknowledged the bullying.

 

[shortylickens]

I got bullied a lot and I have depression. And for a brief while I had suicidal thoughts too.

But thats not automatically relevant here.

Oh well.

 

[PJFrylar]

I got bullied a lot and I have depression. And for a brief while I had suicidal thoughts too.

But thats not automatically relevant here.

Oh well.

Solidarity brother. The bullying I had wasn't harsh (I guess that's what I tell myself at least)... but something broke near the end of high school. I got on antidepressants recently, and I feel a lot better. That was about 13 or 14 wasted years. We just all need to fight for each other, stronger together.

 

[cytg111]

Agreed, so ere on the side of caution.

I was thinking along the lines of getting the opinions of those better educated on the subject.. than just us here, theorizing, based on nothing.

 

[PJFrylar]

I was thinking along the lines of getting the opinions of those better educated on the subject.. than just us here, theorizing, based on nothing.

This is all I want. The bullying to stop.

 

[Vic]

Agreed, so ere on the side of caution.

Which is the side of caution? IMO that would mean erring in favor of more individual determinism and less governmental and social intervention. You and those who agree with you in this thread appear to believe the exact opposite, that we must err in favor of intervention in order to keep some individuals from making decisions you disagree with. In the case of children, that can be valid, but it's apparent that the concern isn't limited to children.

 

[Vic]

This is all I want. The bullying to stop.

The best way IMO to stop bullying is start recognizing it for what it really is. Which is that behavior we tolerate among children which, if adults did the same, would be considered criminal.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Which is the side of caution? IMO that would mean erring in favor of more individual determinism and less governmental and social intervention. You and those who agree with you in this thread appear to believe the exact opposite, that we must err in favor of intervention in order to keep some individuals from making decision you disagree with. In the case of children, that can be valid, but it's apparent that the concern isn't limited to children.

The medical community is very regulated which is what this is. Yes I’m in favor of individual determination and privacy between a doctor and a patient, I get that. But as a society we really need to think is this ethical or not. That conversation seems to be largely absent from all of the hoorahs about transgenderism. Read through the Atlantic article I posted. It’s in favor of transgender rights but cautions about rushing with medical procedures with teenagers who might just need other mental care but are nudged towards trangerism by outside influences when that’s not what they need. They need help and should receive it. No one should be bullied while they figure themselves out. But teenagers are too erratic to make a permanent life altering decision like that. I don’t believe it’s ethical for hormones or surgery to be given to someone so young.

 

[PJFrylar]

You still refuse to recognize the direct link between bullying and suicide.

 

[Victorian Gray]

You still refuse to recognize the direct link between bullying and suicide.

Because he doesn't actually give a damn.

 

[UglyCasanova]

You still refuse to recognize the direct link between bullying and suicide.

I recognize people that are pulled commit suicide. I won’t lie the thoughts definitely ran through my mind in jr high, it was bad. I feared the alarm going off because hay meant having to go to school where I experienced relentless bullying. I was skinny and dorky and there were kids that made my life a living hell. 3 o’clock came along and it was about 15 minutes until I was able to escape that for a while, safe at home, but emotionally destroyed. For two fucking years. Yes I know about it, yes it’s bad, yes it makes you think about suicide. No trans kids or ones that think they are aren’t the only ones bullied. It’s horrible and should be stopped, but what do you want me to acknowledge beyond that?

 

[PJFrylar]

I recognize people that are pulled commit suicide. I won’t lie the thoughts definitely ran through my mind in jr high, it was bad. I feared the alarm going off because hay meant having to go to school where I experienced relentless bullying. I was skinny and dorky and there were kids that made my life a living hell. 3 o’clock came along and it was about 15 minutes until I was able to escape that for a while, safe at home, but emotionally destroyed. For two fucking years. Yes I know about it, yes it’s bad, yes it makes you think about suicide. No trans kids or ones that think they are aren’t the only ones bullied. It’s horrible and should be stopped, but what do you want me to acknowledge beyond that?

The thing is, your last post was the first time you even acknowledged the bullying. I brought that up before I started to get nasty. That was the reason I did. I said the more concerning thing was that there was a pretty solid correlation between bullying and suicide in your own graphic. You never addressed that. That is precisely why I had a huge issue with you and others trying to dismiss it as a fad. No one willingly submits themselves to that as part of some dumb fad.

 

[UglyCasanova]

The thing is, your last post was the first time you even acknowledged the bullying. I brought that up before I started to get nasty. That was the reason I did. I said the more concerning thing was that there was a pretty solid correlation between bullying and suicide in your own graphic. You never addressed that. That is precisely why I had a huge issue with you and others trying to dismiss it as a fad. No one willingly submits themselves to that as part of some dumb fad.

Bullying exists. Acknowledged. That has nothing at all to do with the ethics of whether or not to give teenagers (or younger) hormones and surgeries. You seem to be having a side arguement to the one I was having which is fine.

 

[PJFrylar]

Bullying exists. Acknowledged. That has nothing at all to do with the ethics of whether or not to give teenagers (or younger) hormones and surgeries. You seem to be having a side arguement to the one I was having which is fine.

It is not a side argument... you continue to miss the point. Any look into this has to consider societal factors from all sides. Is it a fad? Or do trans people feel more comfortable nowadays trying to be who they think they are? However, there is still a significant amount of bullying ... which could very well be a factor about the article you posted about them deciding to go back. I wonder what percentage of people who are bullied about their weight or about being a nerd commit suicide. I''m just going by off the numbers your provided.. 1:1 seems to indicate a societal issue to me.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I’m wondering what being bullied has to do with this. Will hormones and surgery decrease the bullying? I don’t follow your arguement.

 

[PJFrylar]

You started this tread by being dismissive of transgender people, saying it was a fad. Then you went on about what damage, your own word, that treatment could do. You then entirely ignored the damage that such a dismissal could do, let alone full blown bullying. You're only considering one half of the coin, I tried to point that at to you, but you ignored it. That's when I started to pointed out what I assumed was just straight up bigotry. The bullying has just amount to do with it as anything else. It took you days and pages to even acknowledge it.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I do think it’s become a fad. And teenagers who are emotionally unbalanced and suffering from other issues can be as he Atlantic article described nudged toward transgenderism when that’s not the real issue with them. I’m sorry there’s bullying going on but that doesn’t discount the point or change the ethical issue of giving them hormones or surgery at that age.

Right now you seem more focused on attacking me personally than anything else, I’m not sure why.

 

[PJFrylar]

I'm really not. I can't understand how you can in good conscience bring up an article about transgender people reversing their decision and entirely ignore the bullying they go through. You seem to be very strongly resisting seeing that side of the coin. Even now when you finally acknowledge it ... you try to just dismiss it entirely as unrelated. I really don't know why. You seem to be concerned with only one half of their welfare, while wanting to turn a blind eye to the rest. In your own words you see it as a fad and treatment as doing damage. I sincerely doubt your concern for their overall welfare. I really, really do... just by your own words.

 

[PJFrylar]

Not to mention, a fad where 35% are bullied and 35% attempt suicide? You think that is just some sort of fad..? C'mon man.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Will giving them hormones and surgery stop bullying?

 

[abj13]

Will giving them hormones and surgery stop bullying?

The answer has been published in multiple studies, here's just a few:

de Vries AL, McGuire JK, Steensma TD, Wagenaar EC, Doreleijers TA Cohen-Kettenis PT. Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment. Pediatrics. 2014 Oct;134(4):696-704.

"After their GRS [gender reassignment surgery ], many participants (89%) reported having been never or seldom called names or harassed. "

Cardoso da Silva D, Schwarz K, Fontanari AM, Costa AB, Massuda R, Henriques AA, Salvador J, Silveira E, Elias Rosito T, Lobato MI. WHOQOL-100 Before and After Sex Reassignment Surgery in Brazilian Male-to-Female Transsexual Individuals. J Sex Med. 2016 Jun;13(6):988-93.

"When considering the facets, sexual activity, freedom, physical safety and security, financial resources, and health and social care were improved after SRS [sex reassignment surgery]..."

Nobili A Glazebrook C, Arcelus J. Quality of life of treatment-seeking transgender adults: A systematic review and meta-analysis. Rev Endocr Metab Disord. 2018 Sep;19(3):199-220.

And finally a metaanalysis found that quality of life is significantly diminished in comparison to the general public before any medical/surgical treatments were performed, but afterwards, their quality of life was no different to the general population.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Good post, and somehing definitely to consider. I still believe the risk of giving this to unbalanced teenagers is too risky. Let them settle their life out and then and only then if they still feel like they need to alter their bodies to conform with the perception of a social construct should they be allowed to. I feel the same about teenagers getting breast implants or tattoos for that matter. They are too young to make very permanent changes.

 

[pmv]

I do think it’s become a fad. And teenagers who are emotionally unbalanced and suffering from other issues can be as he Atlantic article described nudged toward transgenderism when that’s not the real issue with them. I’m sorry there’s bullying going on but that doesn’t discount the point or change the ethical issue of giving them hormones or surgery at that age.

Right now you seem more focused on attacking me personally than anything else, I’m not sure why.

There might be 'faddish' elements to it, but it might be that it's the end of a long-standing 'fad' for believing gender to be an absolute binary. Who-the-hell knows?

I also don't like the idea of irreversible surgery for children, but I don't believe that's what this 2% refers to anyway, so I think that's a red-herring or a straw-man. And I'm personally not 100% comfortable with the hormone thing either, but I'm not a medical professional and fortunately I don't have to make the decisions about that (I guess it might be a genuine dilemma for a very small number of parents,. but, again, there's a whole category of such dilemmas most of them nothing to do with gender politics, most of them due to the simple fact that we constantly have to make decisions without perfect knowledge - life is a bastard like that).

 

[nakedfrog]

That sounds risky in and or itself. Does such thing honestly really exist and what are the side effects? I would think getting through puberty and entering adulthood is necessary too to really know oneself.

Yes, Eligard exists and as far as I know is possible to be taken for at least 1-2 years without causing developmental issues, but they also monitor for potential issues along the way.