Two anecdotes about justice to contrast

[Craig234]

Edit: see update in post #5. This pretty much speaks for itself:

http://www.commondreams.org/further/2011/06/24-8

Clearly there is inequity. Unfortunately, prison sentences of any length don't really mean 'justice'. They're just a 'better than nothing' punishment.

Poverty is almost criminalized when you see a situation like this $100 bank robber.

We need to do more for both issues - a safety net, and stronger finance enforcement.

 

[Doppel]

One was a bank robbery with threat of a gun.

But yes white collar crimes are a joke, the more you steal the more punishment you get in the justice system until it turns into millions and then it kind of ramps down again.

 

[nonlnear]

I have much less angst about the world I live in since I completely abandoned any semblance of belief in the Rule of Law. The concept is a bad joke sold to the masses to disguise the plain fact that the justice system is not very different from those in feudal times. Things have improved some for the poor compared to the days of Dickens, but you have to be blind to believe that our system is in any way founded on principles of equal justice for all.

We have heavy handed enforcement against the poor for a variety of structural reasons that could use a major overhaul. On the other hand we have infrequent and highly inconsistent enforcemnt of white collar crimes for a different set of reasons. When you put the two together it makes for soem stark and emotionally compelling contrasts, but I don't know that it's the best starting point for a discussion of the details of American injustice.

For example I'm not sure that the threat of violence should be ignored in sentencing a person like the homeless example. He threatened someone's life. Depending on the details, I think 15 years might be an appropriate starting point for his sentence. I would like to see a parole system that gives significant latitude on the backside of that sentence to discharge him after, say 3-ish years. On the other hand I fully agree that the sentencing of white collar crimes is a travesty. However contrasting the two verdicts does nothing to improve one's opinion of the problems with the first scenario. All it does is make one feel indignant and irrational about the two miscarriages of justice.

 

[Mursilis]

Paul Allen (the white collar criminal from the link) should never breath air as a free man again. Just over 3 yrs for $3BILLION in fraud is a joke! What the heck kind of judge gave that sentence?

 

[Craig234]

I did a bit more checking, and have to say I found info raising questions about this article on the white collar story.

I don't know if it's true, but the CEO's lawyer said he had no real role in this. It appears it was committed by another executive, 'Farkas', who the CEO testified against.

That other executive is being sentenced this week and prosecutors are asking for a life sentence. I'm disappointed in the article, and posted saying so in its comments.

I think the issue is legitimate generally, though. Some more fun info on this fraud:

The scheme stretched more than seven years. At first, Farkas and others at Taylor Bean persuaded mid-level executives to look the other way when the company overdrew its main account by a few million dollars. Eventually, Taylor Bean double- and triple-pledged mortgages it held to a variety of investors. Colonial was cheated out of more than $500 million, and two other banks — Deutsche Bank and BNP Paribas — lost nearly $2 billion.

Taylor Bean and Colonial also tried to obtain more than $500 million in funding in 2008 from the government's Troubled Asset Relief Program, though neither ultimately received any TARP funds.

The trial exposed Farkas' opulent lifestyle, including his private jet, a sea plane, an extensive collection of classic cars, and real estate all along the East Coast. Farkas' lawyer, Bill Cummings, said in his sentencing memorandum that Farkas was a self-made man who, despite lacking a college degree, worked to build Taylor Bean from a company with six employees in 1993 to 2,600 when it collapsed.

 

[ichy]

One was a bank robbery with threat of a gun.

But yes white collar crimes are a joke, the more you steal the more punishment you get in the justice system until it turns into millions and then it kind of ramps down again.

Actually white collar crime is often punished quite harshly because it's usually a federal crime, and there's no parole in the federal system. Take a look at what happened to some of the Enron crooks. Convictions rates are also much higher in federal court. Do not f*** with the US attorney's office.

Re: bank robbery, if you stick a gun in someone's face to rob them then they amount of money you take is irrelevant. You are a violent thug and deserve to be ruthlessly punished. We do not criminalize poverty in this country, in fact we give undeserving bums far too many handouts.

 

[nonlnear]

Actually white collar crime is often punished quite harshly because it's usually a federal crime, and there's no parole in the federal system. Take a look at what happened to some of the Enron crooks. Convictions rates are also much higher in federal court. Do not f*** with the US attorney's office.

There are some stiff sentences that happen from time to time, but enforcement is very inconsistent.

 

[DukeEsquire]

Paul Allen (the CEO) was certainly the CEO but was not the mastermind behind the scheme.

The actually mastermind received life in prison.

The article is very misleading.

 

[Macamus Prime]

Madoff got a long time in prison, but he honestly does not feel remorseful about what he did; http://nymag.com/news/crimelaw/66468/

But that evening an inmate badgered Madoff about the victims of his $65 billion scheme, and kept at it. According to K.C. White, a bank robber and prison artist who escorted a sick friend that evening, Madoff stopped smiling and got angry. “Fuck my victims,” he said, loud enough for other inmates to hear.

His son on the other hand, off'ed himself. Guess he wasn't as strong as pop.

White collar criminals hang around greedy people. People who want to cheat the system and others out of money. Madoff's "victims" are leeches as well; rich trying to get richer anyway they can. Instead, their champion fucked them all over.

There are those who greatly suffer as a result of white collar criminals, but, lets be honest - the US capital investment markets are corrupt, opportunistic and drenched with lies and deceit. Some of you are totally oblivious to what companies like Madoff's really do. You think all these big name companies are making money by being good and honorable? Wall Street is the goon and companies like Madoff's are the mob bosses. I'll get to you in a second,…

No one has done anything the curb the shit that goes on in US investment firms. Now, it's not just the US. South America, Europe, Russia - they are all just as bad. But, we are the only nation that tries to slap the image of good, honor and accountability on practices that are anything but!

On top of it, most people have the Madoff mentality; you know the risks, you know the game, accept the loss. The investor is told to basically fuck off and die, because they are too stupid. Yet, the investment management firm goes crying to the government for a bail out. And they get it.

See the bigger issue here?

They convinced you to give them your money. They lost it all. They then run to your government and take more money to survive. You get nothing. And, most lap dogs on these forums will bend over and ask for more when they hear stories like this - because Madoff is right; "Fuck my victims". You want this to happen. Since some of you want others to get punished for being needy in some fashion or form. However, you think you are like Bernie Madoff, or you hope to be in some way, some day; screwing over people who aren't as smart as you.

Good luck and, enjoy licking the grundles of guys like Madoff for the rest of your lives, as you hope that someday you will be just like him. Newsflash, your will just admire and taste nothing more than the ass of an angry fat sweaty scumbag like Madoff. You will never do what he or anyone like him has done - because you are weak and incapable, you idiot.



Now, this $100 robber, he had a gun. I am pretty sure he got all that time because he had a gun. There is nothing more to it. No class warfare. No black man being kept down by the man. He had a gun.

 

[CycloWizard]

You're arguing that increasing the extent of the safety net will fix the justice system? I think you are conflating any number of issues with this post.

 

[Mursilis]

I did a bit more checking, and have to say I found info raising questions about this article on the white collar story.

I don't know if it's true, but the CEO's lawyer said he had no real role in this. It appears it was committed by another executive, 'Farkas', who the CEO testified against.

That other executive is being sentenced this week and prosecutors are asking for a life sentence. I'm disappointed in the article, and posted saying so in its comments.

I have a hard time believing someone with the title (and no doubt the pay and perks) of CEO had "no real role" in a $3B fraud. So Allen was collecting millions in compensation to do what exactly?

 

[p0nd]

I did a bit more checking, and have to say I found info raising questions about this article on the white collar story.

I don't know if it's true, but the CEO's lawyer said he had no real role in this. It appears it was committed by another executive, 'Farkas', who the CEO testified against.

That other executive is being sentenced this week and prosecutors are asking for a life sentence. I'm disappointed in the article, and posted saying so in its comments.

I think the issue is legitimate generally, though. Some more fun info on this fraud:

A better example would be that millionaire who recently got away with house arrest after a fatal hit-and-run.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/heir-ryan-levin-gets-house-arrest-ankle-monitor-1522130.html

 

[blackangst1]

What if the bank robber had known gang affiliations and was covered in gang tattoos? Would you still feel it was injustice?

I didnt think so. This is just more emotional drivel from a left wing blog.

 

[blackangst1]

A better example would be that millionaire who recently got away with house arrest after a fatal hit-and-run.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime/heir-ryan-levin-gets-house-arrest-ankle-monitor-1522130.html

House arrest is more than a certain senator got for killing his passenger. At least the millionaire got charged

 

[werepossum]

I have a hard time believing someone with the title (and no doubt the pay and perks) of CEO had "no real role" in a $3B fraud. So Allen was collecting millions in compensation to do what exactly?

This. While I seldom agree with Craig, I do agree that, in general, one gets all the justice one can afford. Which makes this

House arrest is more than a certain senator got for killing his passenger. At least the millionaire got charged

that much worse, as the side arguably more ardent in making justice equal actively confounds justice if its own effective warriors are among the guilty.

 

[her209]

Crack vs Cocaine Sentencing In Pictures
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/10/crack-vs-powder-cocaine-in-pictures.html

 

[woolfe9999]

Re: bank robbery, if you stick a gun in someone's face to rob them then they amount of money you take is irrelevant. You are a violent thug and deserve to be ruthlessly punished. We do not criminalize poverty in this country, in fact we give undeserving bums far too many handouts.

Except he didn't stick a gun in anyone's face because he didn't actually have one. In most states, the fact that you don't use a weapon, or use an unloaded weapon, does mitigate the severity of the crime because the risk of death or injury is greatly diminished. It's still worse than an ordinary larceny - garden variety theft by stealth - because in this situation a guard, believing the thief to be armed, might shoot at the thief and hit a bystander. However, the fact that he was unarmed should be taken into consideration in sentencing, as well as the fact that he turned himself in voluntarily. I do agree the amount stolen is irrelevant.

- wolf