Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate by targeting anti-vaxxers.

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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,993
13,519
136
I dont know the state of antivax'ers in the US but in Europe its equally twofold, leftish hippies, back to earth kind of over eager attempt at a righteous lifestyle in harmony with nature or whatever AND the fullblown chemtrail nutjobs on the right where vaxing is a way for government to control your mind.
Crazy dont have a side
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
But, we have been talking about the modern movement. You are going way back to a different anti vax movement.

There is no such thing as a different anti-vax movement. Anti-vax suspicions don't start and stop, then start and stop. Anti-vax suspicions have been constant, though sometimes ebbing, and sometimes flowing, throughout the history of vaccinations. There is no formal movement either.

Anti-vax was more popular on the left for about 10 years, late 1990's to late 2000's. Currently polling shows it's either even or slightly more common on the right. All you can really say here is that for a time, more liberals seemed to buy into the current anti-vax fad, which is fueled by Wakefield's autism claims. Which has changed in recent years. That's really about it.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
There is no such thing as a different anti-vax movement. Anti-vax suspicions don't start and stop, then start and stop. Anti-vax suspicions have been constant, though sometimes ebbing, and sometimes flowing, throughout the history of vaccinations. There is no formal movement either.

Anti-vax was more popular on the left for about 10 years, late 1990's to late 2000's. Currently polling shows it's either even or slightly more common on the right. All you can really say here is that for a time, more liberals seemed to buy into the current anti-vax fad, which is fueled by Wakefield's autism claims. Which has changed in recent years. That's really about it.

For sure you can consider them different movements. The movement of the 19th century peaked and then fell off quite a bit. Again we are having another, so its perfectly reasonable to consider them different movements.

As for your 2nd part, yes. Someone had said they thought the movement was a left thing, and Amused said no that was a lie. I then said that I think it comes from the fact that this movement was mainly started by the Left and is now more split.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
But, we have been talking about the modern movement. You are going way back to a different anti vax movement.

No, YOU have been talking about the most recent trendy movement started in the 2000s. Grew a bit among leftists, but quickly switched back to it's conservative, conspiratard roots. The modern movement, little changed from the original movement, has been there all along. We have been talking about the entire movement. Not just a 15 year blip in which the left equally embraced batshit along with the right.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
For sure you can consider them different movements. The movement of the 19th century peaked and then fell off quite a bit. Again we are having another, so its perfectly reasonable to consider them different movements.

As for your 2nd part, yes. Someone had said they thought the movement was a left thing, and Amused said no that was a lie. I then said that I think it comes from the fact that this movement was mainly started by the Left and is now more split.

Amused didn't lie. He was citing current polling which shows that today, it's a little bigger on the right than the left. I've been linking surveys on this board for years which were showing it even as a response to people who were claiming it was primarily on the left. You're calling it a lie for not acknowledging that it was more people on the left 10-15 years ago. Yet he never made a claim about its origin.

I went back and read his comments. Not a one is factually inaccurate. It IS trending on the right now, and it's a pattern with conspiracy theories proliferating on the right. When a conspiracy theory which was once more popular on the left is now more popular on the right, what does that tell you? Since ct's associated with one ideology rarely spread to the other, it tells me that something is wrong on the right. That and those other 20 ct's they're buying into right now. Sorry if that isn't "both sides" enough for you.

Anti-vax sentiment has been a running thread in our culture since there have been vaccines. We seem to experience an uptick every so often, which oddly enough is usually an import from the UK. I think treating it as separate movements every time there is an uptick is ignoring that we have a running problem with being suspicious of science and medicine, as a culture.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
You must all realize that an increase in disease can have many explanations, such as improved diagnosis and plain old hysteria.
Or enough folks refusing to vaccinate and our heard immunity to diseases that were essentially wiped out began to fail. I'm sure measles, mumps, chicken pox and whooping cough aren't just back because of improved diagnosis and hysteria. Quite often these isolated outbreaks can be traced back to an individual unvaccinated child.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Amused didn't lie. He was citing current polling which shows that today, it's a little bigger on the right than the left. I've been linking surveys on this board for years which were showing it even as a response to people who were claiming it was primarily on the left. You're calling it a lie for not acknowledging that it was more people on the left 10-15 years ago. Yet he never made a claim about its origin.

I went back and read his comments. Not a one is factually inaccurate. It IS trending on the right now, and it's a pattern with conspiracy theories proliferating on the right. When a conspiracy theory which was once more popular on the left is now more popular on the right, what does that tell you? Since ct's associated with one ideology rarely spread to the other, it tells me that something is wrong on the right. That and those other 20 ct's they're buying into right now. Sorry if that isn't "both sides" enough for you.

Anti-vax sentiment has been a running thread in our culture since there have been vaccines. We seem to experience an uptick every so often, which oddly enough is usually an import from the UK. I think treating it as separate movements every time there is an uptick is ignoring that we have a running problem with being suspicious of science and medicine, as a culture.

Read what I said again. I did not say Amused was lying. I said he claimed it was a lie that its a Left wing thing.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
Read what I said again. I did not say Amused was lying. I said he claimed it was a lie that its a Left wing thing.

"It's a left wing thing" was never true. The left wing reached parity with the right for about 15 years after Wakefield's fraud.

It was never a "left wing thing" nor did it originate with the left wing. Its core believers have always been conspiracy theorists, anti-government types (anarchists/libertarians) and fundamentalist Christians. Some of those may have leaned left, most right, But it is not a "left wing thing."
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Read what I said again. I did not say Amused was lying. I said he claimed it was a lie that its a Left wing thing.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Anti-vax sentiment on the left is driven by concerns over the preservative thimerosol used in some vaccines. Although highly inaccurate, those concerns led to reformulation of most children's vaccines. It never was sentiment against vaccination per se. Lefties, in general, are believers in collective action & the herd immunity derived from mass vaccination dovetails nicely with that.

Lefties are also more persuadable with factual information. They're not anti-science. Far right Christian conservatives put it in terms of God's will & that's that.

There's also a basic difference in philosophy. Libs see vaccination risk not just in terms of protecting our own children but in terms of protecting everybody. Conservatives often take the attitude that their kids don't need to be protected since everybody else is vaccinated, disregarding any sense of obligation to the rest of society.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Anti-vax sentiment on the left is driven by concerns over the preservative thimerosol used in some vaccines. Although highly inaccurate, those concerns led to reformulation of most children's vaccines. It never was sentiment against vaccination per se. Lefties, in general, are believers in collective action & the herd immunity derived from mass vaccination dovetails nicely with that.

Lefties are also more persuadable with factual information. They're not anti-science. Far right Christian conservatives put it in terms of God's will & that's that.

There's also a basic difference in philosophy. Libs see vaccination risk not just in terms of protecting our own children but in terms of protecting everybody. Conservatives often take the attitude that their kids don't need to be protected since everybody else is vaccinated, disregarding any sense of obligation to the rest of society.

Reasons are different, outcome is the same. Why do you think anything that you just said disputes what I said?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Anti-vax sentiment on the left is driven by concerns over the preservative thimerosol used in some vaccines. Although highly inaccurate, those concerns led to reformulation of most children's vaccines. It never was sentiment against vaccination per se. Lefties, in general, are believers in collective action & the herd immunity derived from mass vaccination dovetails nicely with that.

Lefties are also more persuadable with factual information. They're not anti-science. Far right Christian conservatives put it in terms of God's will & that's that.

I wouldn't go that far. Some lefties are anti-science, particularly in regards to western medicine. I live out in CA and we have plenty of those Luddite leftie types here.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Reasons are different, outcome is the same. Why do you think anything that you just said disputes what I said?

Because you're going with the "they're just as bad" routine. I think it's important to understand that people have reasons for what they do, even when they're wrong.

I think it's much more important than that to realize that Russian psyops have reasons for what they do & for feeding whatever controversies we have in this country. It's to set us against each other. Which means we all need to work more from the facts than the feels because we're harder to manipulate at that level.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Because you're going with the "they're just as bad" routine. I think it's important to understand that people have reasons for what they do, even when they're wrong.

I think it's much more important than that to realize that Russian psyops have reasons for what they do & for feeding whatever controversies we have in this country. It's to set us against each other. Which means we all need to work more from the facts than the feels because we're harder to manipulate at that level.

Nope, that is not what I was doing. Not even close. That said, of all the things you would choose to talk about, this is one where its pretty evenly split as shown by the data from Amused.

Vaccination_poll.0.png


Are you saying these numbers are not close?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Who cares if anti-vaxxers are left or right when they're all idiots?
My own theory about the political spectrum is that it's a circle, not a line. So is it any surprise that extremists share many of the same views?
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
BTW, I believe that I shouldn't call anyone an idiot without explaining their idiocy, even if everyone who reads this already knows. Idiot is a word that is too often abused.
Anti-vaxxing comes from 2 motives. The first is the fear of injection, ie who knows what's in that needle? The second is from the fact that vaccines have been so successful that no one they know gets those diseases anymore. Thus, the first thing becomes a greater fear than the disease.
And that's what makes the anti-vaxxers idiots. Because throughout human history, except quite recently, it's always been the exception, and not the rule, that a person would die from old age. Far, far more people who have ever lived, until now, have died from disease than from any other cause.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,537
16,308
146
BTW, I believe that I shouldn't call anyone an idiot without explaining their idiocy, even if everyone who reads this already knows. Idiot is a word that is too often abused.
Anti-vaxxing comes from 2 motives. The first is the fear of injection, ie who knows what's in that needle? The second is from the fact that vaccines have been so successful that no one they know gets those diseases anymore. Thus, the first thing becomes a greater fear than the disease.
And that's what makes the anti-vaxxers idiots. Because throughout human history, except quite recently, it's always been the exception, and not the rule, that a person would die from old age. Far, far more people who have ever lived, until now, have died from disease than from any other cause.

We are three generations removed from these diseases causing widespread disease, disability and death. The vast majority of society has not witnessed these things. Therefore they are easy prey for history revisionist bullshit. Unfortunately, there is a large percentage of the population who must learn everything the hard way. Even more unfortunate is that, in this case, they are making others suffer for it
 

Josephus312

Senior member
Aug 10, 2018
586
172
71
Alex Jones, and the vast majority of the conspiracy driven right-wing are anti-vaxx.

And as the right-wing mainstreams batshit to suit it's own twisted ends, the number of right-wing anti-vaxxers grows.

It's a mistake to think the majority of anti-vaxxers are left wing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ch-of-hippie-liberals/?utm_term=.a92af119b97e

In recent years, the anti-vaxx crowd has been skewing increasing right-wing.

Vaccination_poll.0.png


I have yet to find a single right-wing "Illuminati" conspiracy believer that is not anti-vaxx.

This is literally what I said.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
We are three generations removed from these diseases causing widespread disease, disability and death. The vast majority of society has not witnessed these things. Therefore they are easy prey for history revisionist bullshit. Unfortunately, there is a large percentage of the population who must learn everything the hard way. Even more unfortunate is that, in this case, they are making others suffer for it
The making others suffer for it is the certainty. Medication-resistant disease is on the rise. We were so close to wiping out certain diseases forever.. so close.

BTW, I believe quite strongly that the reason history repeats itself isn't because no one remembers their history, but because everyone who could remember is dead.
 
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Josephus312

Senior member
Aug 10, 2018
586
172
71
Excellent troll game... it will piss the lefties off it will piss the righties off, now just stand back and enjoy the fight. I give it a 6/10, you need to diversify a bit, followup and pick your right audience(this aint it)... But other than that bravo. Bravo.

I qualified it with no less than five far's so unless you are a fucking commie authoritarian militant vegan you can't rally claim any hurt on the matter and the other part was regarding the CT'ers on the right so unless you're part of that particular cult you can't claim hurt on that either.

God damn you people are sensitive little buggers to the word "left" aren't you?

JUST GIVE IT A FUCKING REST!
 

Josephus312

Senior member
Aug 10, 2018
586
172
71
The making others suffer for it is the certainty. Medication-resistant disease is on the rise. We were so close to wiping out certain diseases forever.. so close.

And why is it on the rise? Is it because of a standard where antibiotics is administered to poultry, pork and beef because it actually helps them grow bigger? Can't have Clenbuterol or steroids so let's just shoot them full of advanced antibiotics instead, what could go wrong.

The most insane part is that the farmers don't have to pay more than production costs for these antibiotics. If you're a human being who need them you pay a 1500% markup on the price of the same antibiotics the farmers administer to the animals.

The overprescribing for humans is really just a very small part of it.

Vaccines should be mandatory and antibiotics should only be prescribed when there is an acute need. In most cases with infections it's not needed at all.

I'd say restrict antibiotics use in farming to a point where killing the animal would be cheaper and see what happens there. Restrict the prescriptions in humans to cases that can be defended medically. Don't just hand it out for a cold to get rid of the patient.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Nope, that is not what I was doing. Not even close. That said, of all the things you would choose to talk about, this is one where its pretty evenly split as shown by the data from Amused.

Vaccination_poll.0.png


Are you saying these numbers are not close?

There is no set definition of what is numerically "close," but an 11 point difference is pretty significant. It's more than small and less than large, I guess. It also represents an 11 point shift over a period of 5 years.