tv tuner choice?

[pcernovice]

Hi All,

planning to buy a tv tuner card for my Shuttle (sn45g, nforce 2 board) to make it into a semi-mobile self contained home entertainment system whilst I work abroad, and am looking for recommendations.

The leadtek tv2000 always seems to get good reviews/comments but it appears to have been out for a while....is there anything better?

1. What features (apart from teletext, time shift and PinP) should I look for/expect on a good card?

2. I am looking for maximum bang for my buck (or pounds in my case UK), but I would rather buy something that wouldnt be out of date too soon.

3. My mobo has 5.1 sound if this helps? but are there any cards that wouldnt fit the xpc shuttle units.

4 Are there any cards that I should definately avoid.

5. If everybody shouts leadtek tv2000 at me am I better going for the deluxe or the expert, and what are the differences between them?

Thanks for your help.

 

[ViRGE]

Considering you're building what's effectively a Home Theater PC(HTPC), I would highly recommend something with an integrated MPEG2 encoder; in this case, a Hauppauge PVR-250. At the very least, it's overall picture quality is higher than that of the Leadtek's(due to a better tuner and ADC), and the MPEG2 encoder helps with keeping a low overhead for time-shifting.

 

[JavaMomma]

Last night I was looking into this very subject.
I am considering the Shuttle SFF system.

I was looking at the
Hauppauge PVR-250
or
Hauppauge PVR-350
I have no idea what the differences are though.

I've been thinking of running MythTV on Linux so I can make the machine a small personal web/ftp/mail server.

 

[wetcat007]

I have a leadtek winfast tv/fm tuner works great, except no onboard mpeg2 encoder

 

[Mloot]

Originally posted by: JavaMomma
Last night I was looking into this very subject.
I am considering the Shuttle SFF system.

I was looking at the
Hauppauge PVR-250
or
Hauppauge PVR-350
I have no idea what the differences are though.

IIRC, the PVR-250 has hardware mpeg2 encoding for the video input. I believe the PVR-350 adds hardware encoding to the video/out signal as well, and includes an addition of an FM tuner.

 

[Alkaline5]

I second the PVR-250. IIRC, the 350 adds an FM tuner and onboard S-Video out (for MPEG2 only--no desktop display).

Edit: D'oh. ECHO... Echo... echo...

 

[JackBurton]

Correction, I have the PVR-250 MCE and the only thing the 350 adds is hardware decoding, and just about any PC can do that now and not even break a sweat.

PVR-250 + SageTV 2.0 = AWESOMENESS

 

[T9D]

I personally like external ones much much better. No software or drivers to deal with. Don't even need your pc on. Just click it on like a TV. Comes with a good remote. And it's very easy to plug in other things into the inputs. I just bought the avermedia TV box 5 and love it.

 

[Alkaline5]

The MCE loses the bundled remote, though.

I agree that they're convenient, but external tuners generally have no Program Guide and no recording to disk unless you buy an internal VIVO card anyway. If you just want to watch TV on your monitor that's fine, but just not useful for an HTPC.

 

[JavaMomma]

Originally posted by: Mloot

Originally posted by: JavaMomma
Last night I was looking into this very subject.
I am considering the Shuttle SFF system.

I was looking at the
Hauppauge PVR-250
or
Hauppauge PVR-350
I have no idea what the differences are though.

IIRC, the PVR-250 has hardware mpeg2 encoding for the video input. I believe the PVR-350 adds hardware encoding to the video/out signal as well, and includes an addition of an FM tuner.

Hmmm so I need a video card with TV-Out?
I have a Radeon9000Pro with TV-Out, would that work? Get a Hauppauge PVR-250 or Hauppauge PVR-350 run the cable TV into that card. Then use the S-Video out on the Radeon to my receiver & the soundstorm optical-out to my receiver. Is that all right?

And hopefully there are drivers for all that stuff to work in Linux... Guess I can use WinXP if need be.

 

[ViRGE]

Yes, you need some form of TV out, so you can go with either the 350 or a video card with TV-out. Just keep in mind with the 350, however, is that not everything supports its decoder/TV-out option, so whatever software suite you want to use, make sure you check ahead of time.

PS For Linux, there's Myth TV, which apparantly works well with the PVR250/350, but Linux in general hates the Radeon >=9500, so you definately want the 350 here

 

[JavaMomma]

bah...I guess I won't be using MythTV. Man I thought Linux would have got it together by now...there are no SoundStorm drivers (optical out does not work). And from the sounds of it the video out on the Radeon may not work either.

 

[mrwxyz]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Correction, I have the PVR-250 MCE and the only thing the 350 adds is hardware decoding, and just about any PC can do that now and not even break a sweat.

PVR-250 + SageTV 2.0 = AWESOMENESS

do u have to buy SageTV seperatly?

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: mrwxyz

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Correction, I have the PVR-250 MCE and the only thing the 350 adds is hardware decoding, and just about any PC can do that now and not even break a sweat.

PVR-250 + SageTV 2.0 = AWESOMENESS

do u have to buy SageTV seperatly?

There are a couple of Sage + TV card bundles, just make sure you don't get a "Roslyn" bundle(seach the forums for that term) without first researching what the ramifications of that are.

PS Java, are you sure optical out doesn't work? I'm looking at the latest nForce drivers, and it seems to indicate it would

 

[JavaMomma]

Link

Ya in my digging for drivers I came across that thread. From my understanding, you can get basic sound working from the lineout, but thats it. The S/PDIF won't work.

 

[JavaMomma]

Hmmm reading the driver README now. I think you are right...from readin that it does sound like it should it work.

YEAH! I hope so..

 

[pcernovice]

Whooh, hold on a moment, what have I started here?

Thanks for your replies,

but I have 4 further questions (greedy I know but you all seem so keen!).

1. Somebody has mentioned that the Hauppage DV250 is better than the leadtek tv2000 (although it is twice the price!) as it has a mpeg decoder/encoder....what does this do? on both the 250 and 350 (basic please im a newbie!)

2. The leadtek dv2000 has firewire....is this any different than the firewire that I have on my mobo at present?

4. I have a gforce 3 graphics card, would there be a compatibility problem with any tv tuner cards? and also I have three outputs on it ....a monitor plug, a square one (for tft screens?) and a round multipin socket (s-video?)...can I/do I connect any of these to a tv tuner card?

4. Is the dv250 really that much better to justify being twice the price, and are there any other makes?

Finally can somebody explain (simply) the features available (and what they do), and what I should expect in a tv tuner card

Thanks for any replies, and please excuse any "dumb ass" questions of mine above.

 

[Spearhawk]

I agree on the PVR 250, it's a great card. I got it a while ago and I wouldn't trade it for any other.
I use GB-PVR as my software of choise, I found it to be superior to Sage TV 2.0, and that's not even counting the fact that it's free and updated far more often.
Only thing with GB is that it can be somewhat tricky to thune in the chanels, for that however the demo version of Sage TV worked really nice, I just used it to find the chanel numbers then entered them manualy into GB, worked like a charm.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: pcernovice
Whooh, hold on a moment, what have I started here?

Thanks for your replies,

but I have 4 further questions (greedy I know but you all seem so keen!).

1. Somebody has mentioned that the Hauppage DV250 is better than the leadtek tv2000 (although it is twice the price!) as it has a mpeg decoder/encoder....what does this do? on both the 250 and 350 (basic please im a newbie!)

The Hauppage card is the PVR-250, not DV, so that's just something to keep in mind if you go searching for more info. Now for the question at hand:

MPEG is a standard/algorithm for digital video; MPEG2, for example, is the algorithm used for DVDs. The encoder, in turn, is a discrete chip on the tuner card, that does all the encoding nessisary to make an MPEG2 video stream of the source you're capturing, instead of making the CPU do all the work(and it can be a lot of work). The decoder, in turn, turns the MPEG stream back in to something you can watch. The difference between the 250 and the 350, is that the 350 also has a decoder, but since modern video cards(GeForces, etc) can do most MPEG decoding themselves(which is easier than encoding anyhow), the decoder isn't as important as the encoder.

2. The leadtek dv2000 has firewire....is this any different than the firewire that I have on my mobo at present?

Same thing.

4. I have a gforce 3 graphics card, would there be a compatibility problem with any tv tuner cards? and also I have three outputs on it ....a monitor plug, a square one (for tft screens?) and a round multipin socket (s-video?)...can I/do I connect any of these to a tv tuner card?

A GeForce 3 is fine. As for connecting things, you won't connect any part of the video card to the tuner card; it will all be sent through the PCI bus. You will use the S-video connector on the video card, however, if you output to the TV(PVR-350 excluded).

4. Is the dv250 really that much better to justify being twice the price, and are there any other makes?

The difference is a lot like asking yourself if you want to buy a Radeon 9600, or a Radeon 9800; the differences are large, but you don't always need better. The PVR-250/350 has a very sharp and clean image quality, further boosted by the MPEG2 encoder, which removes some of the distortion in the picture. The 250/350 also has the MPEG2 encoder, of course, which means that CPU usage with the 250/350 is lower, and helps avoid possible "jerks" and "skips" with video.

It costs more than a lower-end card, however(such as the Leadtek Winfast TV 2000), which you can still watch and record TV, however. The question you have to ask yourself, is if you want the cleaner picture, the lower CPU usage, and the time-shifting features of 250/350 or not.

Finally can somebody explain (simply) the features available (and what they do), and what I should expect in a tv tuner card

Thanks for any replies, and please excuse any "dumb ass" questions of mine above.

Most of the features I've already explained, so the last thing I'll really explain is time-shifting. If you've ever seen a Tivo commercial, whenever you pause live-TV, and then resume it, go searching through it, etc, that's time-shifting. Because time-shifting isn't "real time"(whereas just watching normal TV is), it requires that the "live" TV stream be encoded, stored, and then decoded as nessisary, which is a large resource strain. This is why the PVR-250/350 is so popular, since it removes a lot of the strain. The Leadtek technically features time-shifting, but it's of very low quality(a low resolution stream in an older MPEG format) compared to that of the PVR-250/350.

Time-shifting is an umbrella statement, and can also include normal scheduled recordings(ala a VCR), but for the sake of discussion, it will be the "pause live-TV" senario. Any TV card can do scheduled recordings(although CPU usage will again vary depending on what card you get), hence we won't mention it.

Any questions?

 

[hahher]

Any questions?

yeah, does 250/350 still unable to play games? i was looking into getting one and there was problem where you can't play games through video input due to timelag, thus making most games unplayable.

 

[ViRGE]

Yes, that's the only problem I can think of. If you hook up a SNES or whatever to it, the MPEG encode process will add a delay of a couple of seconds. There may be a freeware TV-watching utility that bypasses the MPEG encoder(removing the lag), but since I don't have a normal 250/350(I have a Roslyn), I can't confirm that.

 

[pcernovice]

Thanks Virge for taking the trouble to give a very clear/thorough reply, I understood everything (amazing!).

O.K another 2 questions:

1. I found a website with a review of the two card types (dumb/clever+non-encoder/encoder) at www.aardvark.co.nz/pvr
and they state that although encoders give benefits (taking pressure off cpu) they also have the disadvantage of only allowing 1 format to come in (MPEG), and so not allowinf flexibility. How important is this aspect? and also they mention a good format (divX), is this available on low to mid priced cards?

2. If went for a non-encoder card how big a processor would I need? I am in the process of upgrading my processor (my board can take a 400mhz AMD) and planned on getting an AMD xp2500 mobile (as it will run cooler in my Shuttle and allow me to overclock if I want to), would this be man enough for the job?

Thanks once again.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: pcernovice
Thanks Virge for taking the trouble to give a very clear/thorough reply, I understood everything (amazing!).

O.K another 2 questions:

1. I found a website with a review of the two card types (dumb/clever+non-encoder/encoder) at www.aardvark.co.nz/pvr
and they state that although encoders give benefits (taking pressure off cpu) they also have the disadvantage of only allowing 1 format to come in (MPEG), and so not allowinf flexibility. How important is this aspect? and also they mention a good format (divX), is this available on low to mid priced cards?

Since encoder cards can encode MPEG on their own, that article is correct, in that usually that's the only format you can record with them(the encoder could be bypassed, allowing the CPU to encode whatever it wants, but that almost never happens, so it isn't an option in most programs). All things considered, MPEG is probably the best format for recording off of TV cards anyhow, since it's both high quality, and relitively small - to go any higher would require lossless encoding, and any lower means you get streaming-media like quality.

For the non-encoder cards, their recording applicatons simply pipe the video stream to whatever codec(format) you have selected, and lets the codec take care of the work. In the case of Divx, however, it requires too much in terms of CPU resources at a high quality, full screen resolution(640x480); not to mention Divx and similar codecs benefit greatly from multi-pass encoding(to the point that they virtually require it), which by definition, can't be done when recording a live TV stream. No matter what card you get, the odds are you're going to be recording in MPEG, be it accelerated by the TV card or not(most non-encoder cards simply include a software MPEG encoder).

2. If went for a non-encoder card how big a processor would I need? I am in the process of upgrading my processor (my board can take a 400mhz AMD) and planned on getting an AMD xp2500 mobile (as it will run cooler in my Shuttle and allow me to overclock if I want to), would this be man enough for the job?

Thanks once again.

Like I said, even a 2500+ can't do Divx encoding in real time, so you're going to be using something less demanding like MPEG2 anyhow. Having a 2400+ myself, when I had my Leadtek, I never passed 60% CPU usage when doing MPEG2, and that was the most demanding encoding format I ever used. A 2500+ will be fine.

 

[pcernovice]

Oh a 3rd question,

I've noticed several models come in either analogue or digital...whats the difference?

Also anybody heard of a GTA Black Gold card?,,,and what do you think of them?

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: pcernovice
Oh a 3rd question,

I've noticed several models come in either analogue or digital...whats the difference?

Also anybody heard of a GTA Black Gold card?,,,and what do you think of them?

Could you point these cards out? For the analog/digital thing, it's usually about what kind of a tuner it has(analog or digital), with the idea being that digital tuners are slightly better(read: slightly higher quality) than analog tuners. As for the Black Gold, I've never heard of it.