Turns out Biofuels cause worse pollution than Oil or Coal

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dmcowen674

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Oct 13, 1999
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1-7-2013

http://news.yahoo.com/biofuels-cause-pollution-not-green-thought-study-015806435.html

Biofuels cause pollution, not as green as thought



Green schemes to fight climate change by producing more bio-fuels could actually worsen a little-known type of air pollution


Isoprene forms toxic ozone when mixed with other air pollutants in sunlight.

Biofuels are often blamed for causing food price spikes by competing for cropland.

Responding to such criticisms, the European Commission said last year it aimed to limit crop-based biofuels - such as from maize or sugar - to five percent of transport fuels.
 
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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
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www.alienbabeltech.com
1-7-2013

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ady-on-seasonal-high-for-corn.html?cmpid=yhoo

Ethanol’s Discount to Gasoline Steady on Seasonal High for Corn



Ethanol’s discount to gasoline was little changed on concern that producers will close plants as the price of corn, used to make the biofuel, traded at the highest seasonal level in half a century.


The grain-based additive was 60.07 cents cheaper than gasoline, based on February futures for both commodities. That compares with 60.11 cents yesterday.


“They’re still losing a lot of money,” said Jerrod Kitt, an analyst at Linn Group in Chicago.

Ethanol is made from corn in the U.S. Prices for the grain are the highest level for this time of year in records going back to 1961 after a drought scorched crops in the Midwest

Based on March contracts for corn and ethanol, producers are losing 29 cents on each gallon of the fuel made
 
Olikan

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
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Biofuels does indeed a worse polution than Oil/Coal, nothing new here

but the problem is this:
Oil/Coal polution take Millions of years to become oil again
Biofuels polution take 2-4 years to become a plant again

<--- Ex- Environmental Engineer student
 
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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
"Biofuel" covers dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different chemicals. Some of them are quite clean while some of them are not. It depends on many factors, particularly the purity of the fuel and combustion temperature. If you take used frying oil and burn it, it has any number of additional chemicals in it that it has picked up from the fried food. If you have very nearly pure ethanol and a properly designed engine, it will combust relatively cleanly. The latter is very expensive and the former cheap to produce. The problem is that, just like everything else (e.g. fossil fuels), idiots label all biofuels with a single label and try to argue that they are all the same. They're not.
 
CADsortaGUY

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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www.ShawCAD.com
CycloWizard said:
"Biofuel" covers dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different chemicals. Some of them are quite clean while some of them are not. It depends on many factors, particularly the purity of the fuel and combustion temperature. If you take used frying oil and burn it, it has any number of additional chemicals in it that it has picked up from the fried food. If you have very nearly pure ethanol and a properly designed engine, it will combust relatively cleanly. The latter is very expensive and the former cheap to produce. The problem is that, just like everything else (e.g. fossil fuels), idiots label all biofuels with a single label and try to argue that they are all the same. They're not.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
 
CADsortaGUY

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
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CADsortaGUY

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
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25,162
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Nintendesert

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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Ethanol should be a crime against humanity. Taking crop lands and burning it instead of keeping the price of food down is horrible. Poor people are hit the hardest by it, milk goes up, meat goes up, veggies go up, bread goes up. Everything in the USA we eat has ties to corn, so taking away supply to feed cars is fucking ridiculous.
 
CADsortaGUY

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Nintendesert said:
Ethanol should be a crime against humanity. Taking crop lands and burning it instead of keeping the price of food down is horrible. Poor people are hit the hardest by it, milk goes up, meat goes up, veggies go up, bread goes up. Everything in the USA we eat has ties to corn, so taking away supply to feed cars is fucking ridiculous.
Click to expand...

IMO, the sugar tariffs do just as much if not more harm to food prices in the US than Ethanol does. Stop restricting sugar and it's price would drop and less corn sugar would be used in EVERY food product out there.
 
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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Nintendesert said:
Ethanol should be a crime against humanity. Taking crop lands and burning it instead of keeping the price of food down is horrible. Poor people are hit the hardest by it, milk goes up, meat goes up, veggies go up, bread goes up. Everything in the USA we eat has ties to corn, so taking away supply to feed cars is fucking ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Ethanol can be generated from many more things than corn. Corn is only used because of government subsidies for using corn for this purpose. From an engineering perspective, it's very nearly the worst feedstock.
 
Nintendesert

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
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CycloWizard said:
Ethanol can be generated from many more things than corn. Corn is only used because of government subsidies for using corn for this purpose. From an engineering perspective, it's very nearly the worst feedstock.
Click to expand...



Well of course, however in the USA it's primarily derived from corn. I'd love to see more switch grass or algae research, but people go where the money is. If we stopped pumping money into corn ethanol to entice farmers from food cropping in order to go on government welfare that would go a long way. I keep reading about claims we stopped subsidizing it, but I'm not seeing any decrease in ethanol, instead I see the EPA pushing E85 shit on us to increase our consumption of it.

As for sugar tariffs, sure. Whatever can be done to keep food prices low.
 
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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Nintendesert said:
Well of course, however in the USA it's primarily derived from corn. I'd love to see more switch grass or algae research, but people go where the money is. If we stopped pumping money into corn ethanol to entice farmers from food cropping in order to go on government welfare that would go a long way. I keep reading about claims we stopped subsidizing it, but I'm not seeing any decrease in ethanol, instead I see the EPA pushing E85 shit on us to increase our consumption of it.

As for sugar tariffs, sure. Whatever can be done to keep food prices low.
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Agreed. Aren't we still paying farmers to grow less corn as well? The scope and policies of our government are insane.
 
Throckmorton

Throckmorton

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Aug 23, 2007
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CycloWizard said:
Ethanol can be generated from many more things than corn. Corn is only used because of government subsidies for using corn for this purpose. From an engineering perspective, it's very nearly the worst feedstock.
Click to expand...


Land is land... you grow something else to make ethanol, you are still using land that could be used for food. How is this not obvious to every human being? Do people just lack common sense?
 
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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Throckmorton said:
Land is land... you grow something else to make ethanol, you are still using land that could be used for food. How is this not obvious to every human being? Do people just lack common sense?
Click to expand...
Some of us have knowledge that goes well beyond what you consider "common sense." We know that not all crops are created equal and that some have a higher effective energy density (energy/unit land area) than others. We have enough arable land in the US to feed everyone on Earth if we planted it all and used it for food but the bottom line is that food production is already more than sufficient to accomplish this task - distribution is the issue.
 
K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,429
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Throckmorton said:
Land is land... you grow something else to make ethanol, you are still using land that could be used for food. How is this not obvious to every human being? Do people just lack common sense?
Click to expand...

It is possible to grow ethanol feedstock on land that isn't suitable for food crops. Even if you are going to use good land there are FAR better feedstocks to use and you 'll actually require a lot less land dedicated to biofuel production. Personally I'd rather see a more rapid move to natural gas as a bridge fuel to increased hybrid usage and eventually all electric vehicles.

As for the corn ethanol debacle....blame the US farmers and big agribusiness lobby.
 
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sigurros81

Platinum Member
Nov 30, 2010
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biofuels would still be better than being dependent on the fossil fuel assholes of the world.

I would rather my fuel be made from the farmers of America versus coming from those smug assholes that control the world market with their stranglehold on oil prices.
 
AyashiKaibutsu

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
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sigurros81 said:
biofuels would still be better than being dependent on the fossil fuel assholes of the world.

I would rather my fuel be made from the farmers of America versus coming from those smug assholes that control the world market with their stranglehold on oil prices.
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That's probably not possible without crippling our food industry. Would you rather get fuel from assholes or your food from assholes?
 
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sigurros81

Platinum Member
Nov 30, 2010
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AyashiKaibutsu said:
That's probably not possible without crippling our food industry. Would you rather get fuel from assholes or your food from assholes?
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Haha, that is true. Putting all your eggs into a single basket is never a good idea is my point. I would just like to see America is capable of weaning ourselves off of the dependency of the Middle East.
 
Nintendesert

Nintendesert

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Mar 28, 2010
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sigurros81 said:
Haha, that is true. Putting all your eggs into a single basket is never a good idea is my point. I would just like to see America is capable of weaning ourselves off of the dependency of the Middle East.
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We're not dependent on the Middle East for oil anymore. We export records amounts of refined gasoline right now. Our shale drilling potential dwarfs even all the oil in the middle east.

If we stopped bullshitting and let Canada exploit the hell out of their oil and built the necessary piplelines we'd be even better off. There are a lot of ways for us to keep using oil without getting it from the cavemen.
 
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