Nice to see BDS never goes away from the inflicted.
Why should we assume the Afghan people will not join the modern world too like countless other peoples? Or that the USA is not rapidly flushing itself down the toilet.
Why do you assume the Afghans have any interest in your world? If anything has been shown that is they prefer their culture and way of life over Walmart. Who's to tell them they are wrong? At the same time we aren't compelled to hang around for them to change their minds.
Nice to see BDS never goes away from the inflicted.
lolWhy debate why we lost in Afghanistan, its clearly the fault of the Afghan people. Only one job remains, as we in Nato must invent a cover story to explains how we won peace with HONOR.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------lol
You pronounce that we've lost in Afghanistan while you refuse to acknowledge that we won in Iraq because 'it's not all said and done.'
By your own standards it cannot be known that we have lost in Afghanistan because it's not over and who knows what might happen in a month, a year, or more. That applies per your own P&N reasoning and logic LL, unless you want to be a flaming hypocrite, which wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I'm not putting any words in your mouth LL. Claiming "the jury is still out" doesn't significantly differ with what I said.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TLC, please do not attempt to put words in my mouth I don't agree with.
In terms of Iraq, IMHO, the verdict and the jury is still out. Iraq may stay stable for the present time, or any random event may send Iraq into a regional or civil war. Now that US troops are largely out of Iraq, the USA can no longer act as a stabilizing force.
We never intended to subdue Afghanistan, which is why the Soviets failed. We intended to replace their government with one the people support. So far, we have success in that. The last election saw over 75% of the eligable people vote - even though they knew it could mean death to do it. I call that success.
The total turnout of voters was estimated to be almost 3.6 million out of a total of more than 10 million eligible voters.
Is you stupid? O-Bammah didn't send our troops there in the first place. O'Bammah didn't lose site of the original mission there and focus instead on Iraq...a country that, while it wasn't complying 100% with the UN mandates, was still in 1000% better shape than it is now...
Nope, If GWB would have stayed focused on Afghanistan...gone in, gotten Osama Bin Forgotten, mopped up the Taliban resistance that was fairly minor at the time...and left without trying to rebuild the country into a democratic nation, (something that doesn't seem to work well in that region) then none of the bullshit that's gone on in the past several years would have happened.
While O'Bammah is to blame for us remaining in Afghanistan, the REAL blame for our failure there rests solely and firmly on the shoulders of George W. Bush...the president who fucked that mission in the ass.
Is you stupid? O-Bammah didn't send our troops there in the first place. O'Bammah didn't lose site of the original mission there and focus instead on Iraq...a country that, while it wasn't complying 100% with the UN mandates, was still in 1000% better shape than it is now...
Nope, If GWB would have stayed focused on Afghanistan...gone in, gotten Osama Bin Forgotten, mopped up the Taliban resistance that was fairly minor at the time...and left without trying to rebuild the country into a democratic nation, (something that doesn't seem to work well in that region) then none of the bullshit that's gone on in the past several years would have happened.
While O'Bammah is to blame for us remaining in Afghanistan, the REAL blame for our failure there rests solely and firmly on the shoulders of George W. Bush...the president who fucked that mission in the ass.
Almost sounds perfect to me. Being strongly opposed to nation building, I like the idea of merely having some soldiers on a remote base in Afghanistan that can deploy as needed to blow up Taliban etc. (Assuming the military thinks that's d-able. Otherwise, time to leave.)
The one thing I do NOT want to see is us having to fight our out of Afghanistan.
Fern
Look at Bin Laden, he was trained by us then he turned against us and used his training to recruit and train terrorists.
U.S. government officials and a number of other parties maintain that the U.S. supported only the indigenous Afghan mujahideen. They deny that the CIA or other American officials had contact with the Afghan Arabs (foreign mujahideen) or Bin Laden, let alone armed, trained, coached or indoctrinated them. Scholars and reporters have called the idea of CIA-backed Afghan Arabs (foreign mujahideen) "nonsense",[16] "sheer fantasy",[17] and "simply a folk myth."[18]
They argue that:
Al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri says much the same thing in his book Knights Under the Prophet's Banner.[20]
- with a quarter of a million local Afghans willing to fight there was no need to recruit foreigners unfamiliar with the local language, customs or lay of the land
- that with several hundred million dollars a year in funding from non-American, Muslim sources, Arab Afghans themselves would have no need for American funds
- that Americans could not train mujahideen because Pakistani officials would not allow more than a handful of U.S. agents to operate in Pakistan and none in Afghanistan;[19]
- that the Afghan Arabs were militant Islamists, reflexively hostile to Westerners, and prone to threaten or attack Westerners even though they knew the Westerners were helping the mujahideen.
Bin Laden himself has said "the collapse of the Soviet Union ... goes to God and the mujahideen in Afghanistan ... the US had no mentionable role," but "collapse made the US more haughty and arrogant." [21]
According to CNN journalist Peter Bergen, known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997,
The story about bin Laden and the CIA — that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden — is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA did not understand who Osama was until 1996, when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.[18]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_presidential_election,_2004An election to the office of President of Afghanistan was held on October 9, 2004. Hamid Karzai won the election with 55.4% of the votes and three times more votes than any other candidate. Twelve candidates received less than 1% of the vote. It is estimated that more than three-quarters of Afghanistan's nearly 12 million registered voters cast ballots. The election was overseen by the Joint Electoral Management Body, vice-chaired by Zakim Shah and American diplomat Ray Kennedy.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]
Violence
Rebels loyal to the former Taliban leadership had vowed to disrupt the election, accusing the United States moving to dominate the region. During the election process, five Afghan National Army soldiers died in skirmishes and due to landmines. 15 staff of the Joint Electoral Management Body were killed and a further 46 injured in various attacks.[citation needed] 2 International sub-contractors working in Nuristan in support of the electoral process were also killed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I'm not putting any words in your mouth LL. Claiming "the jury is still out" doesn't significantly differ with what I said.
iow, you want to claim that "the jury is still out" with regards to Iraq yet you pronounce Afghanistan to be already lost when, in fact, the jury IS still out there.
As Al-Sadr, the head of the largest political block in the Iraqi Parliment, has mobilized close to a million Iraqi supporters on the street demanding do a better job fixing Iraqi electrical and plumbing resources.
Please link and quote a post where I claimed al Sadr was finished as a political force. I dare you. Because I guarantee you it doesn't exist anywhere except in your fertile imagination, LL.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total hogwash TLC, IMHO, as it seems to me that your have gone down on records as saying Iraq is already in the bag as a US victory. Or your most famous prediction, IMHO, that Al-Sadr was finished as a political force by 2006. And than an Iraqi strong man type named Maliki would never fail to alienate everyone.
Speaking of hogwash. al Sadr is in no way or form head of the largest political block in Iraq. How can you claim to look at the current Iraqi events on the ground when you don't have the first clue about its Parliamentary makeup?Or you do what I do, and look at current Iraqi events on the ground. As Al-Sadr, the head of the largest political block in the Iraqi Parliment, has mobilized close to a million Iraqi supporters on the street demanding do a better job fixing Iraqi electrical and plumbing resources.Al-Quida is having a seeming field week in terrorists attacks, while Maliki things Iraq can host an upcoming Arab summit.
No, moron. What I am saying is that you avoid in every possible way claiming Iraq was any sort of victory while pronouncing Afghanistan to be lost prematurely. Are you so daft you cannot figure that out for yourself? Or is it due to the fantasy world you seem to live in, the one that has no real grasp on reality?A position that radically differed with what you said TLC, as you said, "You pronounce that we've lost in Afghanistan while you refuse to acknowledge that we won in Iraq because 'it's not all said and done.'
By your own standards it cannot be known that we have lost in Afghanistan because it's not over and who knows what might happen in a month, a year, or more. That applies per your own P&N reasoning and logic LL, unless you want to be a flaming hypocrite, which wouldn't surprise me in the least."
As you seem to be saying, if we have not lost yet, victory is more likely than not. Which is radically different than me saying the jury is still simply out. And I also pay attention to ongoing and likely future events on the ground, while you, IMHO, you have a track records as a poster child for the hypocrisy of unfounded optimism.
Wow. Start by answering my questions before YOU question what color anyone elses sky is, LL.I don't know what color the sky is in your world TLC, but in the world I live in, we don't gain political stability by kicking political problems down the road.
I don't need you or anyone else to tell me who is dying in this war, and you know full well my comments were directed at the loyal Bushies who have been doing all they can to revise Afghanistan into "Obama's War" I'm sure if Obama were able to facilitate some miracle over night pullout, the same crowd would be crowing about how "Cut and run Obama" left the place wide open for an Iranian puppet government or something... Were AQ to move back in after our exit who do you think will get the blame for that?
Obama and his generals don't have the luxury of ignoring the results of Cheney's 7 years of Dithering (unlike so many Bush supporters). Extricating yourself from the briar patch is usually a little more painful and time consuming than performing the stupid jump that got you there in the first place.
To us it's just about getting the guys home, but the Pentagon has to figure Iran into everything now too, which represents a situation that has gotten a bit more tense since 2003.
...Jones was once so gung ho about W.s attempts to impose democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan that, after the French opposed invading Iraq in 2003, he helped lead the effort to rename French fries freedom fries and French toast freedom toast in the House cafeteria.
But now he thinks that both wars are sucking away lives and money, reaping only futility, and that he was silly about the fries. He said hes fed up with having military commanders and Pentagon officials come to Capitol Hill year after year for a decade and say about Afghanistan: Our gains are sustainable, but there will be setbacks and We are making progress, but its fragile and reversible.
...
The epitaph of our Sisyphean decade of two agonizing wars was written last year by then-Secretary of Defense Bob Gates: Any future defense secretary who advises the president to send a big American land army into Asia, or into the Middle East or Africa, should have his head examined.
We got out of Iraq inside 6-9 months once the decision was made.
The same can be done in Afghanistan.
Anything more is political CYA.