Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

[1prophet]

Turkey in radical revision of Islamic texts

Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad.

As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.


This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion
Fadi Hakura,
Turkey expert, Chatham House


But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.

It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.

'Reformation'

Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.

Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.


Some messages ban women from travelling without their husband's permission... But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone
Prof Mehmet Gormez,
Hadith expert,
Department of Religious Affairs

Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.

The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.

An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.

"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.

"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition."


The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.

Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.

Revolutionary

Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.


But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.

Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.

"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.

"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."

The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.

Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".

So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.

Original spirit

Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.


There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment... This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them
Hulya Koc, a "vaize"

As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".

They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.

One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.

She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.

"There are honour killings," she explains.

"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.

"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."

'New Islam'

According to Fadi Hakura, an expert on Turkey from Chatham House in London, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.

He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.

"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation," he says.

"Not exactly the same, but if you think, it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion. "

Fadi Hakura believes that until now secularist Turkey has been intent on creating a new politics for Islam.

Now, he says, "they are trying to fashion a new Islam."

Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.

They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.

"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.

"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

Will the old guard like the Saudi's go quietly or are they going to put up a major fight against this?

 

[Moonbeam]

This is very interesting. Not sure I give a rats ass about the Saudis.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: 1prophet
Will the old guard like the Saudi's go quietly or are they going to put up a major fight against this?

The ones in power in Saudi Arabia don't care about religion. They do loads of things which are forbidden in Islam, and use (partially Islamic) laws to oppress the people. The religious leaders in SA will just ignore what goes on in Turkey.

Muslims in a lot of countries are mixing western freedom with Islam, but don't do it openly or dont talk about it. Part of the young Muslims though in for example the Netherlands feels threatened by people like Geert Wilders (who claims he only targets extremists, but asks for regulations forbidding Islam in general) and therefor turn back to the strict interpretation of the Islam as a protest. (Which in turn provides Wilders' followers with fuel for their hate of Muslims)

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: 1prophet
Will the old guard like the Saudi's go quietly or are they going to put up a major fight against this?

The ones in power in Saudi Arabia don't care about religion. They do loads of things which are forbidden in Islam, and use (partially Islamic) laws to oppress the people. The religious leaders in SA will just ignore what goes on in Turkey.

Muslims in a lot of countries are mixing western freedom with Islam, but don't do it openly or dont talk about it. Part of the young Muslims though in for example the Netherlands feels threatened by people like Geert Wilders (who claims he only targets extremists, but asks for regulations forbidding Islam in general) and therefor turn back to the strict interpretation of the Islam as a protest. (Which in turn provides Wilders' followers with fuel for their hate of Muslims)

Yes they do and used oil money to promote their version of Islam.

The oil boom when it started brought massive amounts of money to the countries of the inner desert, the countries of the Gulf, countries which had lived a sheltered life. Only the elite of these countries used to travel and they sent their kids to the countries of the Levant, which is the secular part of the Arab world, they went to Egypt to study in Victoria College, they went to Lebanon to go to the American University in Beirut, and so forth.

The ruling elite of Saudi Arabia was going to the quote, unquote modernized Arab countries and returning with progressive thinking. Suddenly the whole formula was turned upside down. Billions and billions and billions of dollars started pouring into Saudi Arabia, into the United Arab Emirates, into Qatar, into Kuwait, which are countries where the majority of the population, not the ruling elite now, was profoundly conservative and where this extremely rigid version of Islam, Islamic fundamentalism, which we have conventionally agreed to call Wahhabism, now prevailed.

And along with the money came a movement in the other direction except the people who came to Saudi Arabia to build bridges, to build roads, to build factories -- you know the Saudis were reinventing Saudi Arabia into an American California-style country with new roads, highways, with factories, and so forth and the people who were doing the work were millions of Egyptian poor workers, millions of Yemenis -- there were two million Yemenis in Saudi Arabia,

And all of these people were coming in, and in turn, being influenced by Wahhabism. So instead of importing an elite with a modernized view, Saudi Arabia began exporting back to Egypt poor workers with a very narrow view of Islamic fundamentalism, in fact people who were radical Muslim fundamentalists by the millions. And that began the whole trend of Islamic radical fundamentalism in the Arab world and in the region.

 

[DivideBYZero]

This has nothing to do with the Saudis.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
This has nothing to do with the Saudis.

umm.. It does actually.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
This has nothing to do with the Saudis.

umm.. It does actually.

How?

 

[palehorse]

My only concern is that this will have very little impact, if any, on the radical groups would simply ignore the changes,and continue to preach their hatred basedon the old Hadith interpretations.

And, after all, the majority of Muslims are ALREADY moderate, so what impact can this possibly have on them?

I've heard this very idea suggested by many people over the years, including my own father, but I never thought I'd actually see it happen.

An Islamic Reformation?

Whatever the case, it's certainly an interesting development...

 

[yllus]

Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
This has nothing to do with the Saudis.

umm.. It does actually.

How?

I think the intention is to create a ripple effect that goes well beyond the borders of Turkey. The problem with this idea has always been the need for an orginator with enough influence to make any worthwhile impact on the whole of Islam.

And, given the fact that Turkey is a pseudo-Islamic nation, and that they're initiating this reformation as a whole united nation, it may just be enough to set off the ripple effects necessary to impact and reform all of Islam.

Of course, the entire project may lose steam, and there will always be those pockets of radicals who ignore it that I mentioned before, but it's certainly worth trying.

we shall just have to wait and see...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

The majority of the radicalization has always stemmed from the Hadiths anyways. But you're right, the Quran itself is more than likely untouchable.

We may soon find out that the Hadiths are as well...

/fingers crossed

 

[magomago]

I have long supported this. Remember - there is no official "hadith book". Its just a bunch of alleged sayings - generally using the isnad method to gauge reliability. Bukhairi's compliation is one of the most famous ones, as is Muslim's. Yet this man was born ~200 years AFTER the prophet. On top of it - it must be 100% understood that the hadith are a human creation in the eyes of Muslims. What has always gotten to me (And which I still bitch to with some friends ) is why they hold the hadith so sacred and bring about the B.S. that it is "inspired in the word of God, and therefore is just as correct". Imo, as a Muslim (I'm sure non muslims won't accept the Quran as being the word of god! ) this simply doesn't jive with the basics of religion.

The most disgusting part is when the hadith has contradicted the Quran, and the Quran is actually quietly ignored in terms of yielding to Hadith...despite the fact that the Quran is the word of God and the hadith is NOT.

That said the Hadith are not totally useless. The Quran doesn't specify exactly how to pray, or preform wudu, etc. etc. All of these come through hadith - and these VERY basic ones will never be disputed.
However as far as I'm concerned - we should be cherry picking the hadith for what feels good, and what doesn't. It is a book written by man (Which absolutely no one in the Muslim Intellectual Circle can dispute) and therefore much of it will be bound to the rules of its era.

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

Yup. Revising the Quran means that Islam does not have a basis anymore. Re interpretation of the Quran is one thing, but actually ripping out surahs and ayahs and inserting our own taints the Quran.

Of course its fine with the hadith...because (from the Muslim POV) we wrote it anyways

And palehore : often the intellectual argument is still important. So as long as there are clerics who are going to issue rulings based on 100% human created texts, you will run into issues where the hadith is now explaining 9th 10th 11th century life, as opposed to taking the Quran and applying it to 21st century life. This is an important and necessary task as dialogue, questioning, and intellectual pursuit was always part of Islam (although seems to have now been silenceD)

I must say I'm hesistant of Turkey doing this...these are the guys that still don't allow women to freely wear a headscarf

My quick guess of "western techniques" means they wont rely on the shaky grounds of "isnad".

ie: A heard it from B who it was mentioned to by C whose father D told him when he was a lad. Father D got it from buddy E who associated with a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a person who one night heard the prophet mention something in passing as he was walking home.

Isnad says "Is A, B, C, D bla bla" an honest man? If their backgrounds are not all impeccible, the Hadith is rejected. There are also varying levels of accepted "A B C" A has the highest "probability of being true"...and C has a "fair probability"...

Maybe that is our problem - its still only a probability of being true

Anyways, more discourse is welcome ;thumbsup:

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

The majority of the radicalization has always stemmed from the Hadiths anyways. But you're right, the Quran itself is more than likely untouchable.

We may soon find out that the Hadiths are as well...

/fingers crossed

Not if they get enough people to push it. From a purely Muslim POV that is very conservative, the Hadith is number 2 below the Quran...so even if the hadith was truly "inspired by god" (*cough* bullshit *cough*) , it has to take a backseat to Quranic statements.

The problem is that in practice, the Quran itself is the one that takes a backseat to Hadith

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

The majority of the radicalization has always stemmed from the Hadiths anyways. But you're right, the Quran itself is more than likely untouchable.

We may soon find out that the Hadiths are as well...

/fingers crossed

Not if they get enough people to push it. From a purely Muslim POV that is very conservative, the Hadith is number 2 below the Quran...so even if the hadith was truly "inspired by god" (*cough* bullshit *cough*) , it has to take a backseat to Quranic statements.

The problem is that in practice, the Quran itself is the one that takes a backseat to Hadith

This entire initiative will come down to the clout and respect of the originators (Turkish Imams). If they are not taken seriously by anyone outside of Turkey, this entire project will never get off the ground...

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

The majority of the radicalization has always stemmed from the Hadiths anyways. But you're right, the Quran itself is more than likely untouchable.

We may soon find out that the Hadiths are as well...

/fingers crossed

Not if they get enough people to push it. From a purely Muslim POV that is very conservative, the Hadith is number 2 below the Quran...so even if the hadith was truly "inspired by god" (*cough* bullshit *cough*) , it has to take a backseat to Quranic statements.

The problem is that in practice, the Quran itself is the one that takes a backseat to Hadith

This entire initiative will come down to the clout and respect of the originators (Turkish Imams). If they are not taken seriously by anyone outside of Turkey, this entire project will never get off the ground...

We can't say at this point it is uncertain. The actual work done and its quality is going to matter. If this is a quick and hastily done they will be laughed away much like people think Sadr is an idiot for thinking he can acheive ayatollah status within 2 years when it normally takes decades to do that.
We'll see how it goes, because Turkey already has certain religious traditions like Alevism that never took off anywhere else.

 

[Throckmorton]

A sad day for Turkey's family values. What's next? Attacking the sanctity of marriage?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
This has nothing to do with the Saudis.

umm.. It does actually.

How?

I think the intention is to create a ripple effect that goes well beyond the borders of Turkey. The problem with this idea has always been the need for an orginator with enough influence to make any worthwhile impact on the whole of Islam.

And, given the fact that Turkey is a pseudo-Islamic nation, and that they're initiating this reformation as a whole united nation, it may just be enough to set off the ripple effects necessary to impact and reform all of Islam.

Of course, the entire project may lose steam, and there will always be those pockets of radicals who ignore it that I mentioned before, but it's certainly worth trying.

we shall just have to wait and see...

Trust me when I say they don't give a fuck about Saudi.

<-- used to have a house in Turkey.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: magomago
I have long supported this. Remember - there is no official "hadith book". Its just a bunch of alleged sayings - generally using the isnad method to gauge reliability. Bukhairi's compliation is one of the most famous ones, as is Muslim's. Yet this man was born ~200 years AFTER the prophet. On top of it - it must be 100% understood that the hadith are a human creation in the eyes of Muslims. What has always gotten to me (And which I still bitch to with some friends ) is why they hold the hadith so sacred and bring about the B.S. that it is "inspired in the word of God, and therefore is just as correct". Imo, as a Muslim (I'm sure non muslims won't accept the Quran as being the word of god! ) this simply doesn't jive with the basics of religion.

The most disgusting part is when the hadith has contradicted the Quran, and the Quran is actually quietly ignored in terms of yielding to Hadith...despite the fact that the Quran is the word of God and the hadith is NOT.

That said the Hadith are not totally useless. The Quran doesn't specify exactly how to pray, or preform wudu, etc. etc. All of these come through hadith - and these VERY basic ones will never be disputed.
However as far as I'm concerned - we should be cherry picking the hadith for what feels good, and what doesn't. It is a book written by man (Which absolutely no one in the Muslim Intellectual Circle can dispute) and therefore much of it will be bound to the rules of its era.

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

Yup. Revising the Quran means that Islam does not have a basis anymore. Re interpretation of the Quran is one thing, but actually ripping out surahs and ayahs and inserting our own taints the Quran.

Of course its fine with the hadith...because (from the Muslim POV) we wrote it anyways

And palehore : often the intellectual argument is still important. So as long as there are clerics who are going to issue rulings based on 100% human created texts, you will run into issues where the hadith is now explaining 9th 10th 11th century life, as opposed to taking the Quran and applying it to 21st century life. This is an important and necessary task as dialogue, questioning, and intellectual pursuit was always part of Islam (although seems to have now been silenceD)

I must say I'm hesistant of Turkey doing this...these are the guys that still don't allow women to freely wear a headscarf

My quick guess of "western techniques" means they wont rely on the shaky grounds of "isnad".

ie: A heard it from B who it was mentioned to by C whose father D told him when he was a lad. Father D got it from buddy E who associated with a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a person who one night heard the prophet mention something in passing as he was walking home.

Isnad says "Is A, B, C, D bla bla" an honest man? If their backgrounds are not all impeccible, the Hadith is rejected. There are also varying levels of accepted "A B C" A has the highest "probability of being true"...and C has a "fair probability"...

Maybe that is our problem - its still only a probability of being true

Anyways, more discourse is welcome ;thumbsup:

At first read I think I agree %100 with what you said...however on second thought Isnaad is the only `scholarly` Islamic way of measuring the reliability of a haddith. If Turkey wants to phase out questionable Haddith, all they need to do is use the available and very reliable tool of Isnaad and it's done. Haddiths aren't computer files that can be deleted and forgotten, haddiths are here to stay, however each haddith has it's isnaad and hence that measures it's credibility and therefor it's applicability.

However it seems to me as if they want to create their own Isnaad rules....I say that sucks ass, Turkey is by far the last country that should have any religious authority on anything Islamic. They can do it in their country I guess, I don't think I am going to give 2 * about what conclusion they reach nor anyone else in the region for that matter. I understand that they like being secular and TBH there is nothing wrong with that idea, I :heart: secularist governments. However for them to have banned their own Muslim college females from wearing head scarves in an almost entirely Muslim country ( %99 Muslim population) at some point in time that just goes to show how fscked up their thinking is.

In conclusion, I think everything (ya I am stretching that a bit) Turkey does it is so that they can impress their European fellas so that they look more acceptable to them, more Western if you will. Europe will never (as far as I can see) be impressed with them or feel good about them. And look where that is getting them, the EU just hates their guts, won't even let them in because no matter how secular they are or how democratic they are, in the EU's eyes they will always be Muslims in origin and they will always be hated in Europe for that and they always find an excuse to reject them.

A rough translation of what I always say "He which betrays his principles to get closer to others, loses the respect of both his people and others."

 

[Squisher]

I wonder if the Turks might be willing to say that they were at least sorry for trying to wipe my Armenian ancestors off the face of the globe?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: magomago
I have long supported this. Remember - there is no official "hadith book". Its just a bunch of alleged sayings - generally using the isnad method to gauge reliability. Bukhairi's compliation is one of the most famous ones, as is Muslim's. Yet this man was born ~200 years AFTER the prophet. On top of it - it must be 100% understood that the hadith are a human creation in the eyes of Muslims. What has always gotten to me (And which I still bitch to with some friends ) is why they hold the hadith so sacred and bring about the B.S. that it is "inspired in the word of God, and therefore is just as correct". Imo, as a Muslim (I'm sure non muslims won't accept the Quran as being the word of god! ) this simply doesn't jive with the basics of religion.

The most disgusting part is when the hadith has contradicted the Quran, and the Quran is actually quietly ignored in terms of yielding to Hadith...despite the fact that the Quran is the word of God and the hadith is NOT.

That said the Hadith are not totally useless. The Quran doesn't specify exactly how to pray, or preform wudu, etc. etc. All of these come through hadith - and these VERY basic ones will never be disputed.
However as far as I'm concerned - we should be cherry picking the hadith for what feels good, and what doesn't. It is a book written by man (Which absolutely no one in the Muslim Intellectual Circle can dispute) and therefore much of it will be bound to the rules of its era.

Originally posted by: yllus
Interesting approach. Revising the Koran itself is utterly out of the question, so this is probably the best avenue to modernize and moderate the religion.

Yup. Revising the Quran means that Islam does not have a basis anymore. Re interpretation of the Quran is one thing, but actually ripping out surahs and ayahs and inserting our own taints the Quran.

Of course its fine with the hadith...because (from the Muslim POV) we wrote it anyways

And palehore : often the intellectual argument is still important. So as long as there are clerics who are going to issue rulings based on 100% human created texts, you will run into issues where the hadith is now explaining 9th 10th 11th century life, as opposed to taking the Quran and applying it to 21st century life. This is an important and necessary task as dialogue, questioning, and intellectual pursuit was always part of Islam (although seems to have now been silenceD)

I must say I'm hesistant of Turkey doing this...these are the guys that still don't allow women to freely wear a headscarf

My quick guess of "western techniques" means they wont rely on the shaky grounds of "isnad".

ie: A heard it from B who it was mentioned to by C whose father D told him when he was a lad. Father D got it from buddy E who associated with a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a person who one night heard the prophet mention something in passing as he was walking home.

Isnad says "Is A, B, C, D bla bla" an honest man? If their backgrounds are not all impeccible, the Hadith is rejected. There are also varying levels of accepted "A B C" A has the highest "probability of being true"...and C has a "fair probability"...

Maybe that is our problem - its still only a probability of being true

Anyways, more discourse is welcome ;thumbsup:

At first read I think I agree %100 with what you said...however on second thought Isnaad is the only `scholarly` Islamic way of measuring the reliability of a haddith. If Turkey wants to phase out questionable Haddith, all they need to do is use the available and very reliable tool of Isnaad and it's done. Haddiths aren't computer files that can be deleted and forgotten, haddiths are here to stay, however each haddith has it's isnaad and hence that measures it's credibility and therefor it's applicability.

However it seems to me as if they want to create their own Isnaad rules....I say that sucks ass, Turkey is by far the last country that should have any religious authority on anything Islamic. They can do it in their country I guess, I don't think I am going to give 2 * about what conclusion they reach nor anyone else in the region for that matter. I understand that they like being secular and TBH there is nothing wrong with that idea, I :heart: secularist governments. However for them to have banned their own Muslim college females from wearing head scarves in an almost entirely Muslim country ( %99 Muslim population) at some point in time that just goes to show how fscked up their thinking is.

In conclusion, I think everything (ya I am stretching that a bit) Turkey does it is so that they can impress their European fellas so that they look more acceptable to them, more Western if you will. Europe will never (as far as I can see) be impressed with them or feel good about them. And look where that is getting them, the EU just hates their guts, won't even let them in because no matter how secular they are or how democratic they are, in the EU's eyes they will always be Muslims in origin and they will always be hated in Europe for that and they always find an excuse to reject them.

A rough translation of what I always say "He which betrays his principles to get closer to others, loses the respect of both his people and others."

YAYyyy for 1000 more years of unchecked Islamic fanaticism!! YaayyyyyYYY!!

I, for one, hope that genuinely moderate Muslims are more willing to listen to Turkey's good ideas than the appropriately named Mr. DarkThinker here...

Isnaad has never gone far enough, and its use is much too subjective in nature to EVER fix the Hadith mess. There should be a truly moderate "Book of Hadiths" that somehow becomes the universally accepted standard for all moderate Muslims -- and that is what I believe Turkey is attempting to do.

Dismissing their efforts, without even looking at their product, is downright ignorant.

 

[magomago]

?What makes isnad "Islamic"? What are other "Islamic" Ways and methods? Are we suggesting that some scientific methods maybe potentially considered "unislamic?" Isnad - while I think is a good method for weeding out a lot of bullsh|t still has its problems. We can't be SURE that the cousin of the brother of the bl bla bla bla is a good honest person no matter how hard we try. There are limits to this technique. This the hard part about dealing with isnad is that it relies on what others said about a person's character. This is very difficult to gauge. Imagine right now collecting information on a person's personal life and actions 200 years ago. Now consider the fact that although we have books...the era we are looking at hadn't developed it to the level that we profilerate it at. I suppose getting info from the 1800s is easier...but let us put it within the perspective of 650 Arabia. Things are not necessarily easier...especially when we look into the details of life rather than generalizations about character. Often we rely on diaries of other people who commented on something a person said or did in order to get those peaks in their actual life...but at this point these are few and far in between. Later on, bazaars would be flooded with books in the middle eat, when an average European church would be lucky to have their own small collection of texts. However, we were not at that point yet.

I DO believe that the hadith that have come through have a higher chance of being MORE accurate, especially since so few "stories" in the end became hadith.

Should we follow hadith that are ranked as "fair?" It has a chance of being true - but it also has a chance of being untrue. If the potential for being true is not on firm ground, should it be rejected and not labeled as hadith?

IMO there is no reason that we cannot use other methods in tandem with isnad to study these hadith. That is simply going to help increase the probability of an accurate hadith - one method never has 100%, but if you can employ different tactics you can at least get closer to that. This is actually used in a lot of sensor technologies - these technologies are prone to failure, so if you can have several methods measuring the same information through very different means then you can increase the accuracy of the system closer to 100%.

And we must remember that "western scientific methods and philosophies" doesn't invalidate the analysis. What invalidates an analysis is an analysis' crappy process or simply poor application to a situation (which may imply that a person does not understand how to analyze something correctly, or doesn't full comprehend the system they are looking at). A crappy process will always be called out. Many of these western philosophies were at one point imported into the Islamic world (and preserved...which is how the "west" recovered quite a bit of them), reworked and synthesized through a Muslim POV and exported back out. Ideas such as the "philosopher King" being the most ideal ruler formed into something along the lines of a "prophet from god", and later was expanded on and became Muslim Philsophy in its own right.

What it comes down to me is that we have hadith, which contradict the Quran, that are still used. I would much rather treat the Hadith as a book from which we Cherry pick "good things" from - good being that which can be framed within our society today and fall within acceptance in the Quran. The hadith is clearly written by man, so its validity will be determined by men (unlike the Quran whose validity, to muslims, is constant and not changing)

To a lesser degree this already occurs. No one really subscribes to a single book of compiled hadith (much like no one fully follows a single school of Islamic thought) , and everyone cherry picks what they want to enforce. I'm sure people have never bothered to even read the Hadith. Hell I'll admit it myself that I haven't read a good portion of them. I often hear of hadith in the following way : "I heard that my mom said her friend told that such and such is a hadith" (I'm serious lol). The problem is that it often contradicts the Quran.

I'd simply like to have a cross check to see if the Quran is fine with it....but there will be those who still try to push hadith for their own purposes. The best thing we can do is provide another more stringently checked set of hadith and say "okay the list of what is probable is even smaller".

Even at worst case scenario which you seemed to suggest, this school will make up their own hadith. In that case I'd rather have made up hadith that are in line (first and foremost) with the Quran and then today's world, than to have hadith from "the old days" that say the complete opposite of what the Quran speaks of. Those "made up hadith" would simply be a synthesis of Quranic ideas which is something that we always need to be encouraging.

That and I heard from a friend who told me somewhere he heard from a guy at a supermarket who had a phD in Islamic Studies from one of those universities that the Quran speaks of constant religious rethinking and refreshment of concepts as necessary for Islam...I think


edit: btw this was a response to darkthinker and not to palehorse...he just responded before i was done typing

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Squisher
I wonder if the Turks might be willing to say that they were at least sorry for trying to wipe my Armenian ancestors off the face of the globe?

irrelevant

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
....
YAYyyy for 1000 more years of unchecked Islamic fanaticism!! YaayyyyyYYY!!

Silence blood sucking Zionist, you are the last person to label people as extremists or fanatical, understand?

I, for one, hope that genuinely moderate Muslims are more willing to listen to Turkey's good ideas than the appropriately named Mr. DarkThinker here...

Isnaad has never gone far enough, and its use is much too subjective in nature to EVER fix the Hadith mess.

Fix the Hadith mess? I am sure you have been very concerned about this issue, but please explain to me what the problem is from your POV oh great Sheikh pale face I am all ears to your wisdom.......

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: palehorse74
....
YAYyyy for 1000 more years of unchecked Islamic fanaticism!! YaayyyyyYYY!!

Silence blood sucking Zionist, you are the last person to label people as extremists or fanatical, understand?

I'm not a Zionist. In fact, I personally believe all organized religion is ridiculous.

What makes you think that I'm a Zionist?

I, for one, hope that genuinely moderate Muslims are more willing to listen to Turkey's good ideas than the appropriately named Mr. DarkThinker here...

Isnaad has never gone far enough, and its use is much too subjective in nature to EVER fix the Hadith mess.

Fix the Hadith mess? I am sure you have been very concerned about this issue, but please explain to me what the problem is from your POV oh great Sheikh pale face I am all ears to your wisdom.......

Mango, and the article in the OP, have done a fantastic job describing all of the problems inherent in the Hadiths, and the silly in which they were derived and perpetuated throughout the centuries.

They are a large part of the reason many fanatical Muslim sects are stuck in the 7th century -- so-called "fundamentalists" often refer to the most extreme Hadiths as the justification for much of their hatred and hostilities.

Any group of Muslims willing to take the risk of confronting that mess gets a big :thumbsup: from me! Anyone who resists such moderation and modernization? Well, they become suspect...

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
In fact, I personally believe all organized religion is ridiculous.

:thumbsup: x infinity