Turbo vs regular high compression

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
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The compression ratio of the engine is a pretty simple concept. You take a space 10 units big, you squeeze it to 1 unit, and that would be a 10 to 1 ratio. Normal cars like the Civic LX are low compression and use low grade gasoline. Better performing cars like the Civic Si are high compression and use premium fuel. Super duper high performance engines use a turbo charger to compress it even more, and they too require premium fuel.

What is the point of having a turbo charger? Why not just change the engine a little bit so it naturally runs at super high compression without the turbo?
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
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106
Ordinary economy engines aren't low compression - you'll typically find low compression engines in turbocharged applications.

A turbocharger force feeds the engine..rather than it pulling air in through the intake, the turbo compresses and forces air inside. It's capable of far more airflow than a naturally aspirated motor, hence the ability to make more power.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
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The compression ratio of the engine is a pretty simple concept. You take a space 10 units big, you squeeze it to 1 unit, and that would be a 10 to 1 ratio. Normal cars like the Civic LX are low compression and use low grade gasoline. Better performing cars like the Civic Si are high compression and use premium fuel. Super duper high performance engines use a turbo charger to compress it even more, and they too require premium fuel.

What is the point of having a turbo charger? Why not just change the engine a little bit so it naturally runs at super high compression without the turbo?

It's not just compression, it's volume of air and also to some extent the source of the power used to do the compressing.

A turbo charged engine can move more air into its cylinders per intake stroke than a similar displacement naturally aspirated engine. More air means you inject in more fuel and get more power out of each power stroke.

Turbo chargers also compress their air using a source of power that is pretty much just wasted in naturally aspirated cars. When exhaust gas exits the cylinder it still has energy in it that can do more work, it's just that for both mechanical and practical reasons it cannot all be captured by the piston engine alone. The turbo uses the energy that's still in that gas to do useful work, sucking in and compressing air. That can increase the efficiency of the engine because it gets more useful out of the same amount of fuel.
 

punjabiplaya

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2006
3,495
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volume of air from the turbo > volume of air in the cylinder due to vacuum. Or you can take a look at the new Mazda Sky engines which use high compression (for an NA engine) to achieve some really high fuel economy. However, there has to be a lot of knock sensing and retardation to prevent detonation/grenading
 
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mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
8,877
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Air is 14.7 psi. Without forced compression, you won't get more than that pressure wth the piston at bottom dead center. With a turbo, you can easily get more. 200CFM of air can only accept so much fuel (usually around 13:1, slightly rich in normal cars, higher in Direct Injection) , which limits the burn and subsequent energy output no matter the compression.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
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Compression ratio describes the efficiency of a heat engine to extract thermal energy into mechanical work and has nothing to do with the more commonly used context of compressing something to get more of it in the same space. All compression ratio is is a measure of efficiency, it's value has zero effect on the volume of air entering the engine.

Compression from a turbo/blower serves to increase the density and volume of the air/fuel available for combustion regardless of the compression ratio.

Two completely different concepts. To put it into perspective, put a piston at bottom dead center, then fire it off. Nothing will happen because 0 work is being performed, regardless if the intake is at 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure or 28 psi of pressure with a turbo. The intake is compressed, but the engine does nothing because it captures 0% of the thermal energy as mechanical motion.
 
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Bartman39

Elite Member | For Sale/Trade
Jul 4, 2000
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QFT, it is possible to achieve over 100% volumetric efficiency.


Yes with a race engine but in a practical production engine (normaly aspirated) I think the tech is still a good way off in the future... But with a turbo or supercharger the rules change is idea "exdeath" is pointing out...
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
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Yes with a race engine but in a practical production engine (normaly aspirated) I think the tech is still a good way off in the future... But with a turbo or supercharger the rules change is idea "exdeath" is pointing out...

That's right, it's just race engines with very high intake air speeds. The sheer velocity means you get a small increase over standard atmosphere pressure.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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I think I'm starting to understand, but not quite. Increasing the compression by changing the stroke would leave less area for things to explode; would that severely affect burning efficiency?

Feeding compressed air into the cylinder then compressing the compressed air would leave a lot more space for things to burn.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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That's right, it's just race engines with very high intake air speeds. The sheer velocity means you get a small increase over standard atmosphere pressure.

That's why intake runner lengths are so important on engine designs. The intakes aren't just a bunch of tubing to get air from the carburator/throttle body to the heads any more. Pulses reflect off the top end of the runner and at the sweet spot RPMs give a shot of higher pressure air right into the cylinder as the valve opens.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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I think I'm starting to understand, but not quite. Increasing the compression by changing the stroke would leave less area for things to explode; would that severely affect burning efficiency?

Feeding compressed air into the cylinder then compressing the compressed air would leave a lot more space for things to burn.

With an forced induction car, you have static and dynamic compression ratios.

(all numbers are just for rough examples and not based on a real case)
Take an N/A engine that runs at a 12:1 compression ratio and it's happy. It is effectively running on say, 48 cubic inches of air and cramming them into 4 cubic inches of space.

Add a turbo rocking a high 15PSI of boost, now you're cramming 96 cubic inches of air (the amount before the turbo) and cramming it into 4 cubic inches of space. This yields a dynamic compression ratio of 24:1, way too high for a gas engine.

How do you solve this problem? Make it a 6:1 compression ratio. Then you are cramming 96 cubic inches of air into 8 cubic inches of space, bringing your dynamic compression ratio back down to a usable 12:1.

Because you're cramming more air into the cylinder, it makes the engine act like an engine that is twice as big while you're at peak boost. The low compression isn't to make more power directly, but to allow it to live and operate properly with more boost pressure.
 

IcePickFreak

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2007
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I think I'm starting to understand, but not quite. Increasing the compression by changing the stroke would leave less area for things to explode; would that severely affect burning efficiency?

Feeding compressed air into the cylinder then compressing the compressed air would leave a lot more space for things to burn.

Think about it. 1 bar is 14.7psi, that's atmospheric pressure. If you run a turbo at 15psi you're essentially doubling the air consumption of an engine, which allows you to burn double the amount of fuel of NA engine of the same size. You're essentially making a 2.0L burn (or convert to power, rather) the same amount of air/fuel that a 4.0L does.

Increasing the CR may increase power, but you're still burning the same amount of air/fuel. That's just increasing volumetric efficiency, since the amount of air/fuel it's using is the same. Air/fuel has a maximum amount of power it's able to release when ignited. How much an engine can produce from a set amount versus how much is theoretically available is an engines volumetric efficiency (VE).

So now, which would give you more power - 1. A 2.0L burning 4g/hr of fuel at 95% efficiency or 2. A 2.0L burning 8g/hr of fuel at 85% efficiency?
 

jaha2000

Senior member
Jul 28, 2008
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Think about it. 1 bar is 14.7psi, that's atmospheric pressure. If you run a turbo at 15psi you're essentially doubling the air consumption of an engine, which allows you to burn double the amount of fuel of NA engine of the same size. You're essentially making a 2.0L burn (or convert to power, rather) the same amount of air/fuel that a 4.0L does.

Increasing the CR may increase power, but you're still burning the same amount of air/fuel. That's just increasing volumetric efficiency, since the amount of air/fuel it's using is the same. Air/fuel has a maximum amount of power it's able to release when ignited. How much an engine can produce from a set amount versus how much is theoretically available is an engines volumetric efficiency (VE).

So now, which would give you more power - 1. A 2.0L burning 4g/hr of fuel at 95% efficiency or 2. A 2.0L burning 8g/hr of fuel at 85% efficiency?

keep you units straight on those pressures, that can confuse people. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psia. Your turbo boost is psig.
 

KMc

Golden Member
Jan 26, 2007
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keep you units straight on those pressures, that can confuse people. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psia. Your turbo boost is psig.

I believe that was exactly what he was saying. A turbo at 15 psi (meaning 15 psig) is delivering air at 2x the pressure (15 psig + 14.7 psia = 29.7 psia) than that of atmospheric pressure.
 

jaha2000

Senior member
Jul 28, 2008
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after working in a chemical processing plant for a long time i just make the assumption that most people don't understand the difference so i apologize.

I did have an operator give me a reading in negative gauge pressure once before. After trying to explain for 10 minutes that such a thing did not exist and why it did not exist i just gave up....
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
after working in a chemical processing plant for a long time i just make the assumption that most people don't understand the difference so i apologize.

I did have an operator give me a reading in negative gauge pressure once before. After trying to explain for 10 minutes that such a thing did not exist and why it did not exist i just gave up....

Highlighted the reason why it does exist. Negative PSIG exists. Negative PSIA does not. We have a vacuum pump here that pulls the lines to 14PSI of vacuum, which is -14PSIG, however, that is still 0.7PSIA. You'll never get to -15PSIG at STP though. :)
 

jaha2000

Senior member
Jul 28, 2008
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Highlighted the reason why it does exist. Negative PSIG exists. Negative PSIA does not. We have a vacuum pump here that pulls the lines to 14PSI of vacuum, which is -14PSIG, however, that is still 0.7PSIA. You'll never get to -15PSIG at STP though. :)

It does not read -psig.. It reads Vacuum....
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
10
81
Negative gauge pressure absolutely does exist. Demon-Xanth is correct. Gauge pressure is referenced to atmosphere, not pure vacuum, so any pressure lower than atmosphere would show as negative.
 
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JCH13

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2010
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Compression ratio describes the efficiency of a heat engine to extract thermal energy into mechanical work and has nothing to do with the more commonly used context of compressing something to get more of it in the same space. All compression ratio is is a measure of efficiency, it's value has zero effect on the volume of air entering the engine.

Compression from a turbo/blower serves to increase the density and volume of the air/fuel available for combustion regardless of the compression ratio.

Two completely different concepts. To put it into perspective, put a piston at bottom dead center, then fire it off. Nothing will happen because 0 work is being performed, regardless if the intake is at 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure or 28 psi of pressure with a turbo. The intake is compressed, but the engine does nothing because it captures 0% of the thermal energy as mechanical motion.

Right on, simply put: the compression ratio describes the geometry of the engine and can be used to calculate the ideal Otto cycle efficiency.

The reason why a piston at BDC won't extract any work is because work is pressure*volume through which it expands, and there is no volume expansion in that case. Keep this in mind.

To answer your original question, the reason to use a turbo or supercharger is to essentially increase the displacement of the engine. Doubling the intake pressure by boosting doesn't exactly double the power output, but it's close. Also, a smaller boosted engine will have lower losses (like pumping, bearing friction, etc) than those of a larger engine, increasing the power available to the wheels. This is a very complex subject...

I think I'm starting to understand, but not quite. Increasing the compression by changing the stroke would leave less area for things to explode; would that severely affect burning efficiency?

Feeding compressed air into the cylinder then compressing the compressed air would leave a lot more space for things to burn.

My understanding is that you want the highest possible cylinder pressure when the air/fuel mixture is ignited because the burn rate of the mixture increases with pressure and the engine performance will get closer to an ideal Otto or Diesel cycle.

Otto-Pv-diagram.gif


^^ PV diagram of an otto cycle, the area enclosed by the loop is the work per engine cycle that the engine could extract. The way to look at boosting an engine is to double the pressure at each point (imagine stretching the image to be 2x as high to represent 2atm of boost). The area surrounded by the loop is now bigger, so more work is done per engine cycle. Remember that work is pressure*volume, so super/turbo-charging is increases the pressure throughout the cycle, resulting in more work. There is an amount of extra air and fuel consumed commiserate with the increased work output, so the efficiency of the engine remains unchanged.

Now, if the compression ratio was increased, the pressure at points 2, 3, and 4 would increase (1 is simply the intake pressure), also increasing the amount of work produced by the cycle. The same amount of air and fuel was used but more work was done, so the engine is more efficient.

I'm talking in ideal terms here, there are other losses associated with a forced induction engine that I'm skipping. It's a very complex subject... The main advantage of forced induction is a higher power output without the increased weight/volume of a larger engine.
 
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