Turbo Rebuild - Outsource or Use a Kit?

[Mide]

So I managed to get my hands on a project car being that of a MR2 Turbo. Good thing is that it has super low miles but bad thing is that it is leaking oil from multiple areas; one being the intake side of the turbocharger. I still got a few tests to do to see if the cause is actually the turbocharger itself, but if it is, does anyone have any experience with rebuilds?

All I would be doing is buying a kit, taking apart the old turbocharger, cleaning it up, and replacing various parts, gaskets, seals, etc. I know how a turbocharger works theoretically, but have no training as to what is the "correct" way of doing a rebuild. So the question is, do you think it is either worth it or a good idea since it would cost roughly $100 for a kit? Outsourcing it by sending the turbo out to random rebuild companies will cost around $400-700 as they mention they have specialized equipment to balance, sandblast, or do whatever else a professional place is supposed to do, but I'm not sure if any of that is necessary.

 

[JCH13]

So I managed to get my hands on a project car being that of a 1993 MR2 Turbo. Good thing is that it has super low miles but bad thing is that it is leaking oil from multiple areas; one being the intake side of the turbocharger. I still got a few tests to do to see if the cause is actually the turbocharger itself, but if it is, does anyone have any experience with rebuilds?

All I would be doing is buying a kit, taking apart the old turbocharger, cleaning it up, and replacing various parts, gaskets, seals, etc. I know how a turbocharger works theoretically, but have no training as to what is the "correct" way of doing a rebuild. So the question is, do you think it is either worth it or a good idea since it would cost roughly $100 for a kit? Outsourcing it by sending the turbo out to random rebuild companies will cost around $400-700 as they mention they have specialized equipment to balance, sandblast, or do whatever else a professional place is supposed to do, but I'm not sure if any of that is necessary.

Paging JLee... Black2NA...Fuzzy...

You could rebuild it yourself, assuming the turbo is component balanced.

Consider how much of a PITA it would be if the turbo failed in some way and your engine swallowed some metal... that would cost a lot more than $400-700. Frankly that seems a bit steep, might be worth shopping around a little.

twosrus.com has used turbos: http://twosrus.com/ though I'm not 100% sure they list the one for your application. Call them and David can get you sorted out in no time.




But... I have to ask... why are you certain that the turbo needs rebuilding? Have you taken it off and inspected it? Or at least seen how much shaft play there is?

 

[jlee]

Welcome to the party! :awe:

Pop the intake off and wiggle the turbine shaft. When turbos leak it's typically going to be burning oil, not leaking through the compressor side. That looks like it may be oil from the crankcase vent (look at the hose running from the driver's side of the valve cover into the intake plumbing) building up in the intake. I'd take that off and see how much oil is in there.

If you replace the turbo, I'd spend the ~$450 on a CT20B (OEM Gen3 3SGTE turbo) or a little more on an ATS CT27 (rebuilt/better-i-fied CT26 from ATS Racing).

Before I go on and on..what's your goal for the car, and how much do you want to spend on it?

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

The oil gathering at the intake side of the of the turbo could be coming from the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) pipe, and not from the turbo itself. It is normal/common to have a little oil there. Lots of oil like that could be due to excessive blowby ... Gas blowing past the piston rings and into the crankcase. That gas gets recirculated from the top of the head thru a black pipe going to the side of that intake pipe you posted a photo of.
First thing you shpuld do is a compression test, or even better a leak down test. Thiswill determine the health of you piston rings.

Then take off that intake pipe and try to wiggle the turbo compressor to check for shaft play.

Post results here. I can get some helpful photos and links for youto follow in a couple hours.



And, Yay!! Another MR2 build thread!

 

[jlee]

Hey Fuzzy, when's your road trip to Phoenix with the Mk1.5?

 

[Jimzz]

There is not much to rebuilding a turbo. Just make sure to mark the blades/body and align everything back up when you re-assemble.
Hardest part was getting the main house ring off. Machine shop could not get it off. A transmission shop had snap ring tools that were able to get it off.

This was on a Saab but most turbos I have seen seem, similar.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

Hey Fuzzy, when's your road trip to Phoenix with the Mk1.5?

bah, you beat my post by the amount of time it took me to write it! Loaner phone, slow typing.


Road trip would be AWESOME, and it would be a lot of fun to meet you and exdeath in person... but I would bake in my car down there. Like cake, pie and cookies bake ... no A/C, satin black roof, lots of engine heat.
And trying to get it down there when its not bacon hot would mean during the winter when the roads are nutty for 2500 of the 3000 kilometers.

But it would be good times.

 

[Mide]

Greetings Gentlemen, wow those are much better responses than I've gotten over at mr2.com and mr2oc.com...I think I'll post more here.

But... I have to ask... why are you certain that the turbo needs rebuilding? Have you taken it off and inspected it? Or at least seen how much shaft play there is?

Answer is I don't which could indeed be a good thing. I am just planning ahead just in case of a worst case scenario. I discovered that leak when I was done working on the car this last weekend so I didn't have time to do any further research. Additionally, I think there is another leak coming from the "other side" of where the turbo is located so that is why I assumed the turbo.

Pop the intake off and wiggle the turbine shaft. When turbos leak it's typically going to be burning oil, not leaking through the compressor side. That looks like it may be oil from the crankcase vent (look at the hose running from the driver's side of the valve cover into the intake plumbing) building up in the intake. I'd take that off and see how much oil is in there.

Before I go on and on..what's your goal for the car, and how much do you want to spend on it?

Great question. I'll probably go more into detail when I post my first "build thread" much like yourself and Fuzzy did. My goal at this time is to fix the car such that it is not leaking. Currently, after I drive it, there are approximately 5 droplets of oil that form from different locations under the car. Some of the sources of these leaks may be the same but I am not sure.

Yeah good thing is that I don't think the car is burning oil (No blue smoke, no white smoke, no smoke)...but it is indeed leaking.

Right now I am try to minimize costs since I just got the car and have been spending quite a lot to get it running. Eventually I would like to upgrade to better parts that need replacing...everything from intercooler, radiator, intake, wires, plugs, etc. It's supposed to be an ongoing "fun" project.

The oil gathering at the intake side of the of the turbo could be coming from the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) pipe, and not from the turbo itself. It is normal/common to have a little oil there. Lots of oil like that could be due to excessive blowby ... Gas blowing past the piston rings and into the crankcase. That gas gets recirculated from the top of the head thru a black pipe going to the side of that intake pipe you posted a photo of.
First thing you shpuld do is a compression test, or even better a leak down test. This will determine the health of you piston rings.

To Do List:
1) Yeah I have not wiggled the turbine shaft to yet to see how much play is in there. I'll do that when I can work on the car again probably this weekend.

2) I will also research what a compression test and leak down test consists of. I'm still a novice with this car diagnosing stuff.

3) While doing #1 I'll clean up the area that has oil and take a look at the PCV and see how much oil is around there.

So here is a video that I took when I first got the car home a week or so ago:
http://youtu.be/GEa_5JY7Bmg

Note that I originally thought that there was a coolant leak. And there indeed might still be but I have not noticed it since driving it around some more. In the video it will show "wetness" all around the edges of the oil pan and that is what I am guessing is the main cause of the oil problems. But the caveat to this is that at 2 "other" locations, it looks like there is leaking coming from above the pan. The first is the "bracket" that I mentioned in the video which could be near the turbo intake and the second is on the "left-hand" side of the video where that "funny lookin" pipe is.

So this weekend the goal is to: 4) Drop the oil pan, clean it up, and put it back together using Totota FIPG.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

VERY helpful video. My guess is the oil is coming from above the oil pan. I would leave your pan alone for the time being.
All that oil can be coming from two places.
1. Turbo oil feed gaskets. Working its way down and around the pan.
2. The hose you pointed out at 4:00. This one also leaks a little on my car. EDIT: On second look this could most likely be coming from your distributor. Common.

I wonder if the large banjo bolt behind the exhaust manifold has a bad gasket on it.

Wipe everything down as best you can. Go for a drive and then look again to see exactly where it is leaking from. Heres is my engine with the turbo removed, check the circled line for excessive oil.

On another note: you are missing a cover for the flywheel! Visible at 3:12. Your flywheel shouldnt be exposed like that.

As far as coolant leak, a common spot is the main water neck. Easy gasket to replace. Ill try and find a photo for you
EDIT: on the annotated engine bay photo above, follow from the "Coolant filler cap" down to where it connects above the transmission there... is it wet/weeping under there?

 

[Mide]

Thanks for looking! I'll go take more video from above and below to try to get more data for you to see.

I have seen the pipe that connects to the oil pan from the turbo (bottom left side of the picture) but I don't recall being able to trace the pipe back up to where you circled. Perhaps the exhaust was in the way?

For the distributor, if I removed the cover and rotor to try to see if there was a leak would I need new gaskets and a timing light if there was no problem and I needed to put it back together (Both items I currently don't have)? This was the only thing holding me back from taking it apart. I saw a video from lovehorsepower that showed how to do this.

For the coolant, I was unable to see any location from the top that was leaking. If I follow the coolant filler cap down to the large brown metal thing I don't recall seeing any leaks from there. I'll take a video of this as well.

If the flywheel is not supposed to be exposed, I would assume that it was removed and not replaced the last time the clutch was replaced? Any pressing problems that can come from this other than it is more easily exposed to the elements?

 

[jlee]

No timing light needed unless you move the actual distributor (pulling cap/rotor will not change anything). You won't need gaskets either.

No pressing problems from flywheel exposure other than water and crud and whatever getting in there.

 

[Mide]

Sounds good I'll pull this tonight and take pictures

 

[Black2na]

Woo another mr2!! And between fuzzy,jlee,JCH13 and myself you have the mr2 brain trust! Any problem you have or any questions please feel free to ask. I miss the atg of last year with build threads and cool projects we needed another infusion! Look forward to seeing the project

 

[Mide]

Thanks again everyone for the welcome and assistance. For a while there it totally seemed like an upwards battle to sift through this car blind. Good thing is that I got some work done today. Hope you guys like watching videos. They are slowly uploading...

1 http://youtu.be/O9ye8GxynKc

2 http://youtu.be/r21vD59HLEY

3 http://youtu.be/TywZJjjeTMc

4 http://youtu.be/jt5B6spHtog

5 http://youtu.be/Xaud9oPC7TQ

6 http://youtu.be/vUPcQq6TR-I

7 http://youtu.be/YHlc4yW_qPI

8 http://youtu.be/A3iZAd-fKHA

9 http://youtu.be/txBlg2JsutM

10 http://youtu.be/P-hWaRo-pio

11 http://youtu.be/0MPBcZsopmU

12 http://youtu.be/GYB9dpw-tDo

So after you get done watching all that I, the questions I have are:
1) So how is a tubro that moves 1mm to 1.5mm in most directions? Is this still within spec?
2) What are your thoughts on the distributor? Worth it to remove and buy a timing gun?
3) On video 6 it looked like the whole area near under the oil filter was soaked. I know that oil ran out of the filter when I did an initial oil change but I don't think it was "that" much oil...is there a pipe I should be further investigating near that area?
4) Any suggested next steps?

 

[bruceb]

Personally, I would buy the turbo already rebuilt, as it would come with some sort of warranty. You do it yourself and mess it up, you could destroy your motor. And in some cases, you may need special tools to do the rebuild.

 

[JCH13]

So after you get done watching all that I, the questions I have are:
1) So how is a tubro that moves 1mm to 1.5mm in most directions? Is this still within spec?
2) What are your thoughts on the distributor? Worth it to remove and buy a timing gun?
3) On video 6 it looked like the whole area near under the oil filter was soaked. I know that oil ran out of the filter when I did an initial oil change but I don't think it was "that" much oil...is there a pipe I should be further investigating near that area?
4) Any suggested next steps?

1) 1-1.5mm, or 0.040in-0.060in is getting a little sloppy, I would want to replace the turbo at that point, but I am a bit more conservative than most. The immediate danger is when turbine or compressor blades get close to the housing, how much room is there?

2) My 1991 NA MR2 was leaking oil around the distributor seal. Rebuilding the distributor and re-timing the engine only took a couple of hours and the car runs *so* much better now. I would say go for it, especially if you can't confirm that its been done recently.

3) A little bit of oil spreads a LONG way. I wouldn't be surprised if a few tea-spoons of oil would make the front of the engine pretty slick with oil. I would ignore it for now.

4) I think the next steps are to re-tighten the oil pan bolts (get a good torque wrench! or ideally good torque wrenches) and re-tighten or replace the valve cover gasket. You'll want a good torque wrench if you plan on doing much car work, so that will be a good investment, and tightening things down is free and relatively easy.

 

[Mide]

1) 1-1.5mm, or 0.040in-0.060in is getting a little sloppy, I would want to replace the turbo at that point, but I am a bit more conservative than most. The immediate danger is when turbine or compressor blades get close to the housing, how much room is there?

4) I think the next steps are to re-tighten the oil pan bolts (get a good torque wrench! or ideally good torque wrenches) and re-tighten or replace the valve cover gasket. You'll want a good torque wrench if you plan on doing much car work, so that will be a good investment, and tightening things down is free and relatively easy.

1) I looked at a ruler and I think a more accurate measurement would be .4 to 1mm play on the turbine. Is a brand new or rebuilt one supposed to have zero play?

4) Yeah have 2 cheapo torque wrenches...I usually use both on any bolt but I think they aren't calibrated accurately. Where do you get good ones? Sears?

 

[JCH13]

1) I looked at a ruler and I think a more accurate measurement would be .4 to 1mm play on the turbine. Is a brand new or rebuilt one supposed to have zero play?

4) Yeah have 2 cheapo torque wrenches...I usually use both on any bolt but I think they aren't calibrated accurately. Where do you get good ones? Sears?

1) Yep, essentially. When I got a new shittay china-charger from amazon it had no play. Two years later after auto-x racing it and driving it both summers it still had no play. We'll see what this summer shows...

4) Some have had really good luck with HF wrenches. I really like my Craftsman wrenches. Unless its a total POS you'll probably do okay.

 

[bruceb]

Sears torque wrenches are decent. If you want top quality look at Snap On, but they will cost a lot more. I think the Snap On units come with a calibration sheet, Sears and Harbor Freight units do not have proof of calibration.

 

[Mide]

Ok so I got a few more questions and I got further on this whole thing this weekend.

0) Fuzzy, I got a compression check kit and my number were:

Dry 121 121.5 120 121
Wet 122 122 121 122

I'm not sure how cylinders are numbered so this is left to right when looking at the engine from the rear of the car. So since the numbers seem OK would it be safe to say that I don't need to replace the head gasket anytime soon?

1) Why would the designers of the engine make it so that 2 screws would go through the valve cover and into top directly? Essentially there was the "Intake air connector stay" that was secured using 2 long screws that went into a spacer and then screwed into the cover to secure the "connector stay". When I took it apart I was surprised to see that the screws were full of really black oil because it went through the top of the valve cover. There is a spacer that I took out that is not in the pic so it goes hole>spacer>braket>screws to secure.

2) What is the black stuff on this part? The BGB doesn't show a gasket at this section of the intake, but when I started trying to clean up the black stuff, it was rubbery and formed which seemed like gasket material to me. Just not sure what I'm supposed to buy when I put everything back together.

3) I've determined that oil was spewing out of the top of the turbo as well as the intake so I think we can say that the turbo is shot and needs to be rebuilt. It was suggested that I get one from ats racing or find a ct20b. Are there other vendors that have these in stock? There are the occasional Ebay ones but I don't quite trust that...and it would have no warranty either. But if I choose the rebuilding route, are there any turbo rebuilders that have a good rep on price/quality?

4) So the part of the intercooler rubber in the pic above will totally need to be replaced. I can get an OEM part or maybe I can get a silicone one that comes with many intercooler kits? What is the general opinion on silicone vs rubber for these types of connecting parts?

5) While on my quest to get that turbo removed, it keeps on saying that I need to disconnect the AC compressor. Not sure if this is totally necessary since other parts of the BGB say that I have to drop the engine for some tasks that don't need it. But in the event that I will need to disconnect the AC and reconnect it, how does one measure the "tension" that is placed on the belt that connects to the AC?

6) Do more people like videos or pictures with regards to random questions like this? I noticed that I didn't get many responses to my slew of vids that I posted before...but then I realized that people don't have time to watch all that.

7) Should I make 1 main "build/repair" thread for my MR2 or ask different questions as they come along because they could relate to other cars?

 

[JCH13]

0) Those compression numbers seem really low... did you do your test on a warm engine, with the throttle wide open?

1) --

2) Gasket maker. It likely wouldn't be on any parts diagram, but rather noted in an assembly procedure. Or someone added gasket maker to try to fix an issue.

3) twosrus.com, the owner is one of the more knowledgeable MR2 experts in the country. He also has something like 20-30 turbos kicking around. Basically if you need or want an MR2 part twosrus.com can get it.

4) A nice easy upgrade is replacing the cold-side and hot-side pipes with mandrel bent aluminum tubes. I think you should look into that.

5) You can get a belt tension gauge. Or you can do what 98% of us and set it "tight enough so it doesn't squeal and no tighter"

6) Pics are usually better. There is more resolution and videos take far too long to watch. Oil leaks are tricky... if its not one of a few common issues then your eyeballs on your car is really the only way. JLee and I spent a long, long time tracing an oil leak in his MR2 to a loose NPT fitting. Oil traveled along the underside of wiring... covers... down the engine... it was a really complex path.

7) You could just re-title this thread, or start a new one. Don't spam the garage with threads about every repair/mod if you plan on making a lot of them. A single build thread will also be a lot more interesting for newer people to read.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

This kit looks necessary for you.

I get 160s on my compression tests. 120 is low. DId you have the throttle open?

#1. There will be MANY times you will say "why the heck..." when working on this engine (ex. Hose From Hell, or the HUGE banjo bolt in the impossible to reach location behind the turbo) but just remember... its Japanese. And if you need further explanation then watch some videos at youtube after searching "Japanese commercials". Its best to just accept it and not asks questions lol!

#2. My intake has a thin hard rubber ring there as well. I just used some gasket maker around it. Doesnt leak.

#3. If you can get a 20b, do it! It spools really fast and is fun. But TBH it might be better to decide what you want to do with the car. Do you want Big Powa? or just relatively stock with mild modification? The 20b gives good power at low revs and gives good acceleration at lower speeds. At higher speeds it loses its grunt compared to some other turbos.
The ATS CT27 gets rave reviews but it is pricey at $1100 ($800 with -$300 core). Dont forget shipping as well. You may find more benefit in a used set up from the For Sale section at MR2OC. EDIT: and gasket kits another $100+

#4. Silicone, rubber, doesnt matter, as long as it will take the heat. I have silicone coming right off the turbo and its handling the heat just fine. Probably wouldnt need to spend big bucks for stock part if you can find something else to fill the gap.

#5. No clue about AC stuff. I dont have it.

#6. Videos are ok if you keep em short. Only reason I dont post more is I have slow interwebs and uploading takes a while.

#7. do what you wanna. Just dont start ten threads in a row asking different questions. I just started my own thread and keep nearly everything all together there, but Im not sure anyone reads it anymore.


EDIT: JCH beat me to the punch again.
EDIT EDIT: It might be a good idea to take out you intercooler. I bet its half full of oil.

 

[Mide]

Darn, I didn't know the engine needed to be warmed up. Since I have the whole car taken apart right now, the compression results were done with a bone cold engine and with zero throttle. After all this turbo business is finished and I put everything back together I'll do another round of tests with the engine warm. I shouldn't be touching the throttle, right?

I'll add an intercooler removal/cleaning to my list.

Yeah the goal is just to clean up, keep it mostly stock unless something needs replacing and an aftermarket part is close enough in price. Small upgrades mostly, but not big power

 

[JCH13]

Compression tests are done with a wide-open throttle on a warm engine. That's the only way the results are really meaningful. Doing a cold compression test will only let you know if one cylinder is really damaged and thus very low compared to the others.

Edit: I still read your thread regularly fuzzy, and I know a bunch of other people do too. You just don't ask a ton of questions anymore so we don't have a ton to contribute. You're all "competent" and "good at working on cars" and shit now.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

http://www.mr2oc.com/showpost.php?p=5358394&postcount=4

Greddy TD06 Turbo Kit (Will need rebuild = oil leaking in compressor side)$840 shipped$800 shipped
(Will update later)
Up for sale is a Greddy TD06 turbo kit for gen3.

Comes with 3" DP
Bolts and nuts
Fittings
Oil lines
Manifold adaptor
Gaskets
Greddy td06 turbocharger
new wastegate (internal WG)

Basically everything you need to do a straight bolt on.
Boosts fine but spits out some oil on compressor side.
No smoking out of exhaust though.
Can use it as is but i recommend a rebuild, change the oil seals or something.
I didn't even notice something was wrong with the turbo until i started the car with the turbo hoses off.

ATS Racing sells their kit for $2100