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Trump's lying seems to be getting worse. Psychology suggests there's a reason why.

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,353
4,067
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In my expert opinion I think one of the root causes is that he has led a completely insulated life. I do not believe he lacks empathy, and I base that opinion on the way he flip flops worse than Mitt. I think he is confronted by a family and he instantly supports universal healthcare. A few hours later and the family is no longer fresh in his mind and all his advisers have informed him why universal healthcare will make the US like Venezuela and bye bye UHC support. This makes him incredibly easy to manipulate. Well that and the fact that he would shiv his firstborn son if it would net him a positive public comment.

Of course, by expert, I mean some retard on a forum.
As somebody similarly expertly qualified, I see this: His isolation as such is a problem but one greatly enhanced by privilege. Most of us learn pretty quick what happens when we only toot our own horn. But when society hands you a big shiny solid silver horn to toot when your born, socialization becomes especially critical. One of the problems with being the best at everything is that you also want to be the best at being good and in that way being good can become a real aim. But when you have to be the best at everything you lie to yourself so you never notice any failure.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
28,235
10,948
136
As somebody similarly expertly qualified, I see this: His isolation as such is a problem but one greatly enhanced by privilege. Most of us learn pretty quick what happens when we only toot our own horn. But when society hands you a big shiny solid silver horn to toot when your born, socialization becomes especially critical. One of the problems with being the best at everything is that you also want to be the best at being good and in that way being good can become a real aim. But when you have to be the best at everything you lie to yourself so you never notice any failure.
Exactly.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
53,987
7,201
126
As somebody similarly expertly qualified, I see this: His isolation as such is a problem but one greatly enhanced by privilege. Most of us learn pretty quick what happens when we only toot our own horn. But when society hands you a big shiny solid silver horn to toot when your born, socialization becomes especially critical. One of the problems with being the best at everything is that you also want to be the best at being good and in that way being good can become a real aim. But when you have to be the best at everything you lie to yourself so you never notice any failure.
I call it he Michael Jackson syndrome. When one becomes wealthy some tend to isolate and surround themselves with only "yes" men. This tends to slowly, but surely divorce them from reality. To the objective outsider, they become increasingly "weird," delusional and difficult.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
28,235
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I call it he Michael Jackson syndrome. When one becomes wealthy some tend to isolate and surround themselves with only "yes" men. This tends to slowly, but surely divorce them from reality. To the objective outsider, they become increasingly "weird," delusional and difficult.
Of course, he was born wealthy, so he never had a connection to reality in the first place.
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
53,987
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Of course, he was born wealthy, so he never had a connection to reality in the first place.
Yes, however he was not always able to control his environment and social contacts. Wealthy kids are forced to deal with teachers, coaches, first job bosses, their parents, relatives, siblings, professors, schoolmates, etc. Only when they are adults and wealthy in their own right with no involuntary outside contact does this happen.

Wealthy kids can be slightly removed from reality by way of privilege. But what I am talking about is far worse than that.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
28,235
10,948
136
Yes, however he was not always able to control his environment and social contacts. Wealthy kids are forced to deal with teachers, coaches, first job bosses, their parents, relatives, siblings, professors, schoolmates, etc. Only when they are adults and wealthy in their own right with no involuntary outside contact does this happen.

Wealthy kids can be slightly removed from reality by way of privilege. But what I am talking about is far worse than that.
Were pretty much picking nits now but AFAIK his teachers and education were bought and his first job was POTUS.

When I said insulated, I meant insulated from any of the realities normal people have to deal with, like the consequences of making a mistake.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
12,195
3,517
136
He lies.
He never admits he was wrong.
Gets called on his bullshit.
Makes up even more lies to try and lie his way out.

Yes, that is going to eternally compound upon itself.
A big contributing factor of that is that Trump has millions of folks who think his lying is simply not a problem for them and cheer him on with bravado as if his lying is something desirable and essential for him to accomplish his (their) agenda.

That scares me to no end that these millions of folks think that being a pathological liar is some kind of redeeming quality in their leader of the free world and that having integrity and honesty are weaknesses that can somehow be exploited by their leader.

Strange times we now live in.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
28,235
10,948
136
A big contributing factor of that is that Trump has millions of folks who think his lying is simply not a problem for them and cheer him on with bravado as if his lying is something desirable and essential for him to accomplish his (their) agenda.

That scares me to no end that these millions of folks think that being a pathological liar is some kind of redeeming quality in their leader of the free world and that having integrity and honesty are weaknesses that can somehow be exploited by their leader.

Strange times we now live in.
Those same people were absolutely livid about "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."
 
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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
14,951
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There is no doubt of a sociopathic dimension to Trump's personality, and the sociopathic side goes hand in hand with the narcissistic disorder.

He has somehow made a studied practice of lying, and there is also no doubt that he either believes some of his own likes from the beginning, or comes to believe them soon over time.

I have to see it for what it is. Anyone who has so little regard for the Truth, must have no serious respect for learning or knowledge of any sort. Does that not parallel with Trump's own deficient reading skills and his employment of a ghost writer to craft his "Art of the Deal?" This notion of respect for the Truth has a moral dimension. IT IS a moral dimension.

Apparently, Trump never had to face negative consequences for his dishonesty. He regards it as a business skill, when serious, professional business people would reject it as such. At least Bernie Madoff went to jail.

Perhaps the frequency of his lying reflects his stress when he might be facing the consequences of the lying. As if fighting his own war with reality and the human society around him, he increases the boldness and number of his lies as a battle tactic. It is reassuring to him that he can simply get away with it.

His lies are an assault on the Truth, an assault on reality, and as close as it can be to a physical assault on his critics and opponents.

A more interesting question I might ask is why his supporters don't feel assaulted. Trump reflects his Base, and the Base reflects Trump. From either side of the equation, neither cares about anyone else. They both want to upend civilization itself, but neither believe that they are destroying civilization or doing damage to it.

What would you expect? Any group of people so fond of the Great Lie are certainly going to lie to themselves, so you will observe a hemorrhage of logical inconsistency across everything they say.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
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A malignant narcissist (and the vile one is just one of the countless ones who inhabit this planet) exhibits what is called magical thinking. Perhaps it can be understood as a different dimension of reality. The lying is not conscious lying in the sense of what most people think a lie to be. It is hard to explain in so many words. The moral compass, yes there is one. It is turned 360 degrees towards them. It always points to meeting their own needs, just like a regular compass always points to the north pole.

Regards affluent upbringing - and that somehow being connected to any of this - no, none at all. That is looking at narcissism from a very shallow angle and basically completely missing it.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
14,951
1,050
126
A malignant narcissist (and the vile one is just one of the countless ones who inhabit this planet) exhibits what is called magical thinking. Perhaps it can be understood as a different dimension of reality. The lying is not conscious lying in the sense of what most people think a lie to be. It is hard to explain in so many words. The moral compass, yes there is one. It is turned 360 degrees towards them. It always points to meeting their own needs, just like a regular compass always points to the north pole.

Regards affluent upbringing - and that somehow being connected to any of this - no, none at all. That is looking at narcissism from a very shallow angle and basically completely missing it.
I want to disagree with your last remark.

A narcissist of meager means will soon discover that the world will not take kindly to his behavior. He will not advance himself easily in society. So he either must temper or cure his narcissism, or find a niche like Hollywood where there are more people like himself.

The narcissist with the silver spoon up the keester may find himself sheltered from his own behavior. He might not be quite as successful as he could be, or then again his practice and venue may find that niche in which he can take advantage. But he might not really suffer for it, and people will ignore his pathology because of their own illness of worshipping money as the measure of all things.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,353
4,067
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I want to disagree with your last remark.

A narcissist of meager means will soon discover that the world will not take kindly to his behavior. He will not advance himself easily in society. So he either must temper or cure his narcissism, or find a niche like Hollywood where there are more people like himself.

The narcissist with the silver spoon up the keester may find himself sheltered from his own behavior. He might not be quite as successful as he could be, or then again his practice and venue may find that niche in which he can take advantage. But he might not really suffer for it, and people will ignore his pathology because of their own illness of worshipping money as the measure of all things.
I think that where your comment connects with Noah’s lies in the relationship between a compas that always points in a certain direction, self interest, and valuing money as the sign of self worth. A self that does not draw respect from its own natural self being, where that door has been closed by self hate, must create an alternate universe in which there is an alternate form, a substitute for real self respect, and then cling to it with all out desperation.

If you think of the variation in experience of children being self degradated vs variation in capacity to cope with it, I think one can imagine there are points where extremes create Stockholm Syndrome, a place where sympathy for victims dies and is replaced with the realization that the only escape from the pain is to join the club of those doing it.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,149
14,361
136
A more interesting question I might ask is why his supporters don't feel assaulted.
Figuratively speaking, Trump just grabbed 'em by the pussy & they swooned at the attention. They're his. If Trump was a pimp they'd be turning tricks for him.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
27,080
12,629
136
Don't need science to explain. Trump lies more and more because it works for him. It works for him because there are too many gullible people will and eager to believe his bullshit. Rinse and repeat.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,214
126
Don't need science to explain. Trump lies more and more because it works for him. It works for him because there are too many gullible people will and eager to believe his bullshit. Rinse and repeat.
It's not a bad thing to look into the science even when behaviors are seen. For example one guy not many minutes ago just embraced Ayn Rand's philosophy and didn't know it. Having a basis for understanding a subject is not a bad thing indeed.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
53,987
7,201
126
It's not a bad thing to look into the science even when behaviors are seen. For example one guy not many minutes ago just embraced Ayn Rand's philosophy and didn't know it. Having a basis for understanding a subject is not a bad thing indeed.
Her entire philosophy?
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
There has been all this talk about narcissism because of the vile one, but as far as malignant narcissists go, the vile one is a relatively simple case. He is quite transparent about it. He does not have the cleverness to put any mask, as the worst ones do. Because we are so ignorant about human traits and only look at the surface of a person, the vile one stands out because he is the same at the surface as he is inside. I submit we all know personally and publicly far worse narcissists but are unaware of it.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
17,511
5,071
136
I want to disagree with your last remark.

A narcissist of meager means will soon discover that the world will not take kindly to his behavior. He will not advance himself easily in society. So he either must temper or cure his narcissism, or find a niche like Hollywood where there are more people like himself.

The narcissist with the silver spoon up the keester may find himself sheltered from his own behavior. He might not be quite as successful as he could be, or then again his practice and venue may find that niche in which he can take advantage. But he might not really suffer for it, and people will ignore his pathology because of their own illness of worshipping money as the measure of all things.
He has never worked for anyone in his life. He's never had a public corporation. He would last 6 months in the real world. After a few beatings, he would have finally gotten the message that his shit does stink after all. His money has literally protected him from any reality.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
I want to disagree with your last remark.

A narcissist of meager means will soon discover that the world will not take kindly to his behavior. He will not advance himself easily in society. So he either must temper or cure his narcissism, or find a niche like Hollywood where there are more people like himself.

The narcissist with the silver spoon up the keester may find himself sheltered from his own behavior. He might not be quite as successful as he could be, or then again his practice and venue may find that niche in which he can take advantage. But he might not really suffer for it, and people will ignore his pathology because of their own illness of worshipping money as the measure of all things.
Do you think the vile one does not suffer? Or other rich and/or powerful narcissists? I think they suffer a lot.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,114
3,651
126
A big contributing factor of that is that Trump has millions of folks who think his lying is simply not a problem for them and...
I'm sorry but that's not exactly true. I know first hand Trump voters who are incapable of determining that he has ever lied. The voters are delusional and detached from objective reality. Hence their belief in trickle down being an economic solution. Their detachment is substantial.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,149
14,361
136
I'm sorry but that's not exactly true. I know first hand Trump voters who are incapable of determining that he has ever lied. The voters are delusional and detached from objective reality. Hence their belief in trickle down being an economic solution. Their detachment is substantial.
Faith conquers all.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
I'm sorry but that's not exactly true. I know first hand Trump voters who are incapable of determining that he has ever lied. The voters are delusional and detached from objective reality. Hence their belief in trickle down being an economic solution. Their detachment is substantial.
Every narcissist has admirers. This goes for both personal and public space. Not surprising at all.

Americans are not exactly what is called the sharpest tool in the drawer. I don't think the ancestors, the immigrants from Europe, were exactly that either. The better ones didn't come here.
 

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