Trump will either pull us out of NATO or weaken it in a second term

[woolfe9998]

During his first term, Trump wanted to pull us out of NATO, but was talked out of it. But in a second term, Trump will either do it, or present our allies with an ultimatum, either increase their defense spending dramatically, AND weaken Article 5, which is the mutual defense obligation, or the US will pull out.

Trump Plots to Pull Out of NATO -- If He Doesn't Get His Way

Donald Trump is discussing how the U.S. might pull out of NATO or put it on "standby" should he be reelected and it not meet his demands, per sources.

www.rollingstone.com

Trump, the sources say, has continued to express an openness to pulling the U.S. out of NATO altogether. However, Trump has suggested that this could be averted if the alliance — which Trump once famously called “obsolete” — gives in to his newest demands. This would include his desires for non-American members to further and steeply increase their defense spending, and for a reevaluation of the bedrock principle that an attack on one member is tantamount to an attack on all.

When he was in office, Trump would repeatedly scoff at this collective-defense clause of the North Atlantic Treaty, known as Article 5. One former senior administration official recalls to Rolling Stone a moment in the Oval Office in mid-2018 when the then-president started reading from a written list of smaller NATO countries, some of which he argued most Americans had never even heard of before.

Trump doesn't understand how much that would harm US security. But Trump shows no concern about American security, stealing classified documents to use them for bragging rights, telling private individuals about US nuclear subs and describing his private calls with foreign leaders.

Trump also evidently thinks it was a mistake to enter WWII (never mind Pearl Harbor LOL) because it wasn't our war. But then, he probably thinks Pearl Harbor was a Civil War battle.

Anyway, if you know anyone who might be a swing voter next year, you might pass this on. Opposition to NATO is a feature only of the extreme right and not everyone who will or might vote for him will agree.

In case anyone hasn't figured this out, Trump being re-elected is an existential threat to American democracy and America itself.

I'd quit focusing so much on the legal cases. Trump's goose is cooked. He's 100% going to jail if he isn't re-elected, but if he's re-elected, it will be cataclysmic for America and the world. So focus on making sure he doesn't get re-elected.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

That's the thing with Trump, everyone already knows.

Now it comes down to whether or not people agree with him or not.

 

[Saylick]

I know it's a common theory that Trump is anti-NATO because of his Russian handlers, but I think Occam's Razor applies here. The man doesn't like NATO because he views the world in a purely transactional way: if you do this for me, I will do this for you. From his POV, NATO isn't doing enough for the USA so he doesn't understand why the USA should do things for them. This myopia of his doesn't allow him to see the bigger picture, that what the US gains in international influence, thus allowing it to maintain its hegemony, is worth many times more than what is put in. Heck, some things can't even be valued with dollar amounts, such as ensuring a dictator doesn't destabilize the world, but El Gordo here doesn't recognize that.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yeah I wouldn't say everyone already knows. Some people vote with little information at hand. I'd say the vast majority of staunch Trump opponents know, but swing voting independent types tend to be less well informed.

 

[woolfe9998]

I know it's a common theory that Trump is anti-NATO because of his Russian handlers, but I think Occam's Razor applies here. The man doesn't like NATO because he views the world in a purely transactional way: if you do this for me, I will do this for you. From his POV, NATO isn't doing enough for the USA so he doesn't understand why the USA should do things for them. This myopia of his doesn't allow him to see the bigger picture, that what the US gains in international influence is worth many times more than what is put in. Heck, some things can't even be valued with dollar amounts, such as ensuring a dictator doesn't destabilize the world, but El Gordo here doesn't recognize that.

Basically correct, but I think the principle thing he doesn't understand is the concept of deterrence. NATO and Article 5 protect US security because potential enemies know that if they go to war with the US, even over US possessions outside the country, that they are going to war with two dozen other nations as well. He doesn't know this because he doesn't see the Europeans coming to our aid, because the deterrence works. He's like an infant who doesn't understand object permanence. If he can't see a concrete thing right in front of him, it may as well not exist. Plus, as I said, he doesn't care one wit about US security. That is principally what swing voters need to be informed of in the next election cycle, among other things,

 

[Saylick]

Basically correct, but I think the principle thing he doesn't understand is the concept of deterrence. NATO and Article 5 protect US security because potential enemies know that if they go to war with the US, even over US possessions outside the country, that they are going to war with two dozen other nations as well. He doesn't know this because he doesn't see the Europeans coming to our aid, because the deterrence works. He's like an infant who doesn't understand object permanence. If he can't see a concrete thing right in front of him, it may as well not exist. Plus, as I said, he doesn't care one wit about US security. That is principally what swing voters need to be informed of in the next election cycle, among other things,

I think he would understand the concept of deterrence. I just don't think he thinks that it's effective because he likely believes that the USA's military is many times more powerful than the rest of the NATO members such that we gain little to no benefit from Article 5. Again, he works in a purely transactional way. If he thinks he's getting the short end of a deal, he's against it. It's why he's an isolationist. He literally believes that the US is so strong (basically exceptionalism) that we don't need anyone else, because they just suck on our teat. Not saying I agree with this sentiment but his supporters, especially the uneducated ones who have no real reason to care about international policy because they are striving to make ends meet, also see the world this way: "Why should the US help out others when I, a full-blooded American citizen, am struggling?! Ukraine is at war with Russia?? Screw them. Help me out first!"

 

[hal2kilo]

I know it's a common theory that Trump is anti-NATO because of his Russian handlers, but I think Occam's Razor applies here. The man doesn't like NATO because he views the world in a purely transactional way: if you do this for me, I will do this for you. From his POV, NATO isn't doing enough for the USA so he doesn't understand why the USA should do things for them. This myopia of his doesn't allow him to see the bigger picture, that what the US gains in international influence, thus allowing it to maintain its hegemony, is worth many times more than what is put in. Heck, some things can't even be valued with dollar amounts, such as ensuring a dictator doesn't destabilize the world, but El Gordo here doesn't recognize that.

He wants it to be all about him. Sharing any credit with anyone, or organization is a no go. You people forget what an absolute genius he is. /s

 

[Indus]

Didn't Congress pass an act last year that President's alone can't leave NATO without the consent of the senate?

 

[woolfe9998]

Didn't Congress pass an act last year that President's alone can't leave NATO without the consent of the senate?

You might be referring to this:

Senate committee passes bipartisan bill to stop Trump withdrawing from Nato

Senate foreign relations committee voted unanimously for bill which will now await a slot to go to the Senate

www.theguardian.com

Not last year, but in 2019 while Trump was POTUS. However, I see no evidence that the bill was ever passed.

 

[Indus]

You might be referring to this:

Senate committee passes bipartisan bill to stop Trump withdrawing from Nato

Senate foreign relations committee voted unanimously for bill which will now await a slot to go to the Senate

www.theguardian.com

Not last year, but in 2019 while Trump was POTUS. However, I see no evidence that the bill was ever passed.

No I'm pretty sure it was last year.

 

[woolfe9998]

I think he would understand the concept of deterrence. I just don't think he thinks that it's effective because he likely believes that the USA's military is many times more powerful than the rest of the NATO members such that we gain little to no benefit from Article 5. Again, he works in a purely transactional way. If he thinks he's getting the short end of a deal, he's against it. It's why he's an isolationist. He literally believes that the US is so strong (basically exceptionalism) that we don't need anyone else, because they just suck on our teat. Not saying I agree with this sentiment but his supporters, especially the uneducated ones who have no real reason to care about international policy because they are striving to make ends meet, also see the world this way: "Why should the US help out others when I, a full-blooded American citizen, am struggling?! Ukraine is at war with Russia?? Screw them. Help me out first!"

It's the same America First crap that we had tons of in the 1920's and 1930's. Almost all its proponents were culturally conservative and many were pro-fascist. The two seem to go together. Isolationism is almost always undergirded by xenophobia.

 

[trenchfoot]

It sure seems like the Republican party proper believes they can force the rest of the nation into their control if they can create a sense of apathy amongst those that would possibly vote against them while vociferously fanning the emotional flames of their rank and file party members. Most of them are die hard loyalists who have become deaf, dumb and blind to the realities of the world from the decades long campaign of disseminating isolationist/racist agitprop by their political leaders. They've been pounding that manner of propaganda into the the heads of their members on a daily/hourly basis via FOX, conservative AM radio and other media outlets under their control.

Those people can't be saved from the altered world they've wrapped themselves in so it will be up to the rest of us to make sure their twisted fascist world of lies and deception won't be the one the rest of us will have to live in.

 

[NWRMidnight]

A bill preventing the President alone from being able to pull out of Nato has been attempted multiple times over the years, non being successful. The latest was introduced this year (2023), and has passed the Sentate in July. But as far as I know, it has never been introduced or voted on in the House. So, currenlty There is no finalized law yet inplace preventing the President Alone, from pulling us out of Nato.

Bill passes Senate to keep any US president from unilaterally pulling out of NATO

A bipartisan bill to prohibit an American president from unilaterally pulling the U.S. out of NATO has passed the Senate, according to its sponsor.

katv.com

 

[Pens1566]

I mean, this isn't exactly a secret.

 

[woolfe9998]

True, but the difference this time is that Trump says he intends not to have any "NATO lovers" in his White House, meaning he is not likely to be talked out of it in a second term. Or any of the other stupid or evil shit he intended to do the first time. He's going to do it all.

 

[Pens1566]

True, but the difference this time is that Trump says he intends not to have any "NATO lovers" in his White House, meaning he is not likely to be talked out of it in a second term. Or any of the other stupid or evil shit he intended to do the first time. He's going to do it all.

But that's the case with like all of his positions. There won't be any Mattis/etc. in any position. It'll be all unqualified true-believers or people he knows from the MAL buffet.

 

[K1052]

You might be referring to this:

Senate committee passes bipartisan bill to stop Trump withdrawing from Nato

Senate foreign relations committee voted unanimously for bill which will now await a slot to go to the Senate

www.theguardian.com

Not last year, but in 2019 while Trump was POTUS. However, I see no evidence that the bill was ever passed.

It passed as an amendment to the NDAA I think in 2019.

Edit: or apparently not. It’s on as amendment for the 2024 NDAA.

 

[eelw]

Biden should do a little reverse psychology and get angry at NATO. You can bet the house Repugnicans would quickly prevent it.