Trump warns 'when looting starts, shooting starts' as Minneapolis burns

[pauldun170]

The majority of protestors are not engaged in looting, but there are certainly protestors who are also engaging in looting, and the looters are using the protest as cover for their behavior

What are you proposing? That protesters should stop protesting?
Should everyone stand down until order is restored?
Then what?

 

[ElFenix]

What are you proposing? That protesters should stop protesting?
Should everyone stand down until order is restored?
Then what?

imagine if we treated the cops the same way for their few bad apples as the right wants to do with protestors for theirs?

and lets not forget that very calm, very respectful protest gets immediately turned around and ridiculed by the right

 

[BoomerD]

Theft is not a tactic

When looting becomes a valid tactic...so does shooting the looters.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

When looting becomes a valid tactic...so does shooting the looters.

No it doesn't, you lunatic.

Fucking toasters aren't worth human lives.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Looting occurs in all conflicts.

You expect them all to act like a disciplined coherent well-trained army? Every one of whom follows the mot effective tactics? None of whom considers their own private self-interest?

Be careful what you wish for.

I expect them not to commit crimes as an extension of exercising their free speech. Doesn’t seem like too unreasonable an expectation.

 

[Starbuck1975]

When looting becomes a valid tactic...so does shooting the looters.

There is no justification for shooting looters, if anything the police and national guard across the country demonstrated incredible restraint last night. Lethal force is going to escalate things.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What are you proposing? That protesters should stop protesting?
Should everyone stand down until order is restored?
Then what?

Exercise their free speech without stealing or burning anything. Seems like a reasonable ask to me.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There is no justification for shooting looters, if anything the police and national guard across the country demonstrated incredible restraint last night. Lethal force is going to escalate things.

Yep. Friendly reminder, there's 1.2 guns for every person in the US. Escalation to deadly force is not going to improve this situation.

 

[pmv]

I expect them not to commit crimes as an extension of exercising their free speech. Doesn’t seem like too unreasonable an expectation.

You expect there to be no criminally-minded people in the US?

 

[woolfe9998]

You expect there to be no criminally-minded people in the US?

No, I expect there will be some criminals in a large group of protesters. I also expect people on the left to condemn these actions instead of making excuses for it. There aren't any excuses for it, end of story.

We can have a different conservation on a different occasion about the legitimate reasons for protesting. Let's not rhetorically entwine the two because that sounds an awful lot like justification.

 

[senseamp]

No, I expect there will be some criminals in a large group of protesters. I also expect people on the left to condemn these actions instead of making excuses for it. There aren't any excuses for it, end of story.

We can have a different conservation on a different occasion about the legitimate reasons for protesting. Let's not rhetorically entwine the two because that sounds an awful lot like justification.

No, I expect there will be some criminals in a large group of cops. I expect people on the right to condemn these actions instead of making excuses for it. There aren't any excuses for it, end of story.

We can have a different conservation on a different occasion about the legitimate reasons for police to use force. Let's not rhetorically entwine the two because that sounds an awful lot like justification.

 

[woolfe9998]

No, I expect there will be some criminals in a large group of cops. I expect people on the right to condemn these actions instead of making excuses for it. There aren't any excuses for it, end of story.

We can have a different conservation on a different occasion about the legitimate reasons for police to use force. Let's not rhetorically entwine the two because that sounds an awful lot like justification.

I don't fukin' care that the right isn't condemning those cops because they never do and never will. The right is morally corrupt and intellectually bankrupt. The left is supposed to be better, not mirror the behavior of the right which is precisely what you suggest above.

Here's the way: condemn the violence in the protests. Then ask the other side to condemn the violence of those cops. When they predictably do not do so, there is an obvious contrast. We want contrast, not parallelism. We want peace all the time. They only want peace when brown people are being violent.

Bothersidery doesn't work when you want to be the one to claim the moral high ground.

 

[senseamp]

I don't fukin' care that the right isn't condemning those cops because they never do and never will. The right is morally corrupt and intellectually bankrupt. The left is supposed to be better, not mirror the behavior of the right which is precisely what you suggest above.

Here's the way: condemn the violence in the protests. Then ask the other side to condemn the violence of those cops. When they predictably do not do so, there is an obvious contrast. We want contrast, not parallelism. We want peace all the time. They only want peace when brown people are being violent.

Bothersidery doesn't work when you want to be the one to claim the moral high ground.

Why is left supposed to be better? When they go low, we go high BS? Kaepernick went high, he protested thoughtfully and peacefully, the right attacked him anyways, cost him his employment in the NFL, and did nothing about the problem.
How about the other side condemns the violence of the cops first since it happened first, and for a very long time? Then we can talk about the rioters.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Exercise their free speech without stealing or burning anything. Seems like a reasonable ask to me.

Sure, if the MAGA Nazis would let them, they just might.

https://imgur.com/tMmohBJ

Amphetamine Use Soars in Locked Down Finland: Study

Finns may be known for their love of vodka and beer, but growing numbers in the Nordic nation appear to have turned to amphetamines to cope with the coronavirus lockdown, health officials said on Thursday.

www.courthousenews.com

There is a sub r/ with a whole list of this stuff.

 

[fskimospy]

While I don’t condone the violence I do understand it.

People have peacefully protested this for decades - nobody cares. They probably (correctly) think this is one way to make them care.

 

[woolfe9998]

Why is left supposed to be better? When they go low, we go high BS? Kaepernick went high, he protested thoughtfully and peacefully, the right attacked him anyways, cost him his employment in the NFL, and did nothing about the problem.
How about the other side condemns the violence of the cops first since it happened first, and for a very long time? Then we can talk about the rioters.

Oh the left is supposed to be just as shitty as the right? I see. Oh wait, but they started it dad! Two wrongs make a right! Tell me, did that woman who was beaten senseless with boards by angry "protesters" who were smashing her shop windows "start it" too?

Us going "high" may be bullshit when it comes to campaigning against Trump in an election, because you can't not attack Trump by highlighting all the horrible things he's done. But this kind of situation we're in right now is exactly where it must apply.

 

[woolfe9998]

While I don’t condone the violence I do understand it.

People have peacefully protested this for decades - nobody cares. They probably (correctly) think this is one way to make them care.

Oh, this violence is making them "care" all right. It's what they're caring right now which is counter-productive to the cause. We had a righteous narrative with those videos of police using excessive force against black people. Now we have a viral video of a white woman, a civilian, being beaten by black protesters.

There is no way to spin this as justified. It isn't just wrong in and of itself. It is changing the narrative in a very unfavorable way.

 

[senseamp]

Oh the left is supposed to be just as shitty as the right? I see. Oh wait, but they started it dad! Two wrongs make a right! Tell me, did that woman who was beaten senseless with boards by angry "protesters" who were smashing her shop windows "start it" too?

Us going "high" may be bullshit when it comes to campaigning against Trump in an election, because you can't not attack Trump by highlighting all the horrible things he's done. But this kind of situation we're in right now is exactly where it must apply.

You don't get it. The right is simply using "you didn't protest the right way" to do nothing about police brutality. And it's never going to be the "right way" for them. The only way to win this game is to stop playing. So I am done playing this nonsense.
Black Lives Matter. Regardless of whether people protest, regardless of how they protest, regardless of what happens during the protests. Black Lives Matter. Period. End of Story.

 

[DrunkenSano]

When looting becomes a valid tactic...so does shooting the looters.

Maybe a stray bullet will take you out so your insanity doesn't spread. Advocating for yeeting civilians, what the fuck is wrong with you.

 

[woolfe9998]

You don't get it. The right is simply using "you didn't protest the right way" to do nothing about police brutality. And it's never going to be the "right way" for them. The only way to win this game is to stop playing. So I am done playing this nonsense.
Black Lives Matter. Regardless of whether people protest, regardless of how they protest, regardless of what happens during the protests. Black Lives Matter. Period. End of Story.

Yes, black lives still matter regardless of violence in those protests. But arson is wrong. Theft is wrong. Beating defenseless women with boards is wrong. Are we really going to claim we are for the rule of law when the GOP let's Trump get away with corruption, but when some blacks are committing violent crimes in the street, we say it's understandable because they're legitimately mad.

I disagree you've stopped playing the game. I think you've chosen to play the game exactly the way they are.

 

[pauldun170]

Wonder why people are angry at police?

Police Erupt in Violence Nationwide

From New York to Los Angeles, police officers escalated the national unrest.

slate.com

 

[fskimospy]

Oh, this violence is making them "care" all right. It's what they're caring right now which is counter-productive to the cause. We had a righteous narrative with those videos of police using excessive force against black people. Now we have a viral video of a white woman, a civilian, being beaten by black protesters.

There is no way to spin this as justified. It isn't just wrong in and of itself. It is changing the narrative in a very unfavorable way.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'justified'. I think there is a moral case that violence is never justified, and by engaging in it people are simply sinking to the level of the cops. It's a good argument!

As far as it being counterproductive though I'm not so sure about that. For example the Fair Housing Act was dead in the water in 1968 and no amount of nonviolent protest was changing that. Then MLK was assassinated and mass riots broke out. Fear of those riots and more like them was probably the determining factor in getting that landmark legislation passed. Rioting worked.

With that in mind the idea that rioting is inherently counterproductive is probably wrong. You may think the ends don't justify the means and I'm sure in SOME cases they are counterproductive but a blanket statement like that isn't supported by history. Also, in the case of the last week or so the police are often the instigators of the violence, not the protesters. We're basically seeing a national scale police riot.

 

[senseamp]

Yes, black lives still matter regardless of violence in those protests. But arson is wrong. Theft is wrong. Beating defenseless women with boards is wrong. Are we really going to claim we are for the rule of law when the GOP let's Trump get away with corruption, but when some blacks are committing violent crimes in the street, we say it's understandable because they're legitimately mad.

I disagree you've stopped playing the game. I think you've chosen to play the game exactly the way they are.

We can talk about arson, theft, beatings after police brutality is seriously addressed, sure. But not before.

 

[cytg111]

Looting occurs in all conflicts.

You expect them all to act like a disciplined coherent well-trained army? Every one of whom follows the mot effective tactics? None of whom considers their own private self-interest?

Be careful what you wish for.

That is exactly what he is saying... Its mind-bending in its own right. He will make the distinction in first breath between looters and protesters and then conflate them again the next and pretend its logic.

 

[woolfe9998]

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'justified'. I think there is a moral case that violence is never justified, and by engaging in it people are simply sinking to the level of the cops. It's a good argument!

As far as it being counterproductive though I'm not so sure about that. For example the Fair Housing Act was dead in the water in 1968 and no amount of nonviolent protest was changing that. Then MLK was assassinated and mass riots broke out. Fear of those riots and more like them was probably the determining factor in getting that landmark legislation passed. Rioting worked.

But rioting won't work to achieve positive change in this partisan environment that we have now in 2020. What WILL work is voting the republican party out of office. Who's DoJ is more likely to investigate the Minneapolis PD for racial bias? Trump or Biden? Who's set of policies are likely to address the economic woes of the black communities which are causing crime like trying to pass of counterfeit bills and giving the cops an excuse to be there in the first place? Trump or Biden?

Also, in this hyper-partisan environment, with new technology to create viral videos, violence is being politically weaponized more so than it ever could be in the past. That video of the white woman being beaten will now play right through election season along side of the video of Floyd being abused by those cops. So much for my first premise: to elect democrats.

With that in mind the idea that rioting is inherently counterproductive is probably wrong. You may think the ends don't justify the means and I'm sure in SOME cases they are counterproductive but a blanket statement like that isn't supported by history. Also, in the case of the last week or so the police are often the instigators of the violence, not the protesters. We're basically seeing a national scale police riot.

I disagree with that as a general observation even if there are some instances where it is true. Much of this police "incitement" or "instigation" are exaggerations of situations where no one has been seriously hurt.