Trump War Against Trans Americans Continues as CDC Replaces LGBTQ References with LGB

[ondma]

There is a big difference, but the point is that you don't get to draw that line for me and I don't get to draw that line for you. Puberty is a chemical process and there are plenty of genetic problems so pretending that how we are "genetically programmed" is somehow a sacred thing not to be tampered with seems shortsighted.

So now you are implying that ones genetically determined sex is a "genetic defect" if it doesnt align with one's gender? There is still a big difference between taking steps to counteract a genetic defect that causes a disease vs altering one's genetically determined sex/gender.

 

[Anarchist Mae]

People raised to understand that Gender = Sex, and there is no separation or distinction. There is no social construct involved. No options, no choices. Just mental illness. (We) cannot comprehend or support idea that people should the taught to take harsh drugs and undergo surgery to mutilate the body, rather than being taught to love their body.

If Gender is a social construct, then there is no biological mandate or necessity to act out contrary your own Sex. If one can choose to be male or female, then one can also choose to simply be what they already are. And the contrary choice is deemed a mental illness given the obvious harm, dysfunction, and dissatisfaction involved. Ours would be a message of "be who you are", that is... who you were already born as. And to try and help people find comfort in that. Rather than endorsing people going to the extremes to oppose and alter their bodies. Especially given the trend of involving young children in these life altering choices.

It is a simple matter of denying the choice. That it exists, or that it should be promoted. And to believe that self love can be found without it.

If I chose what I, as you put it 'already am', then it would mean living with chronic depression and suicidal thoughts. You say that there's no biological mandate for gender, but that's not really true, it could very well turn out that there is, it's just a very complicated thing to study. Maybe you're right and self love can be found without transitioning, but where are these people who've been able to repress this?

I'll tell you - they're coming out now in their 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s having been forced to live a lie that entire time.

So now you are implying that ones genetically determined sex is a "genetic defect" if it doesnt align with one's gender? There is still a big difference between taking steps to counteract a genetic defect that causes a disease vs altering one's genetically determined sex/gender.

Some people are literally born a chimera of two sexes, we know this because there are quite frequently obvious signs, men who grow breasts, women with testes, but what's to stop it from affecting a persons brain as well? It's possible to be born with a male brain in a female body or the other way around.

Genetics is messy and sometimes you get strange results, but to call that a disease? You'd be calling everyone with detached earlobes diseased and measuring skull shape before long. There is no such thing as genetic purity.

 

[ondma]

If I chose what I, as you put it 'already am', then it would mean living with chronic depression and suicidal thoughts. You say that there's no biological mandate for gender, but that's not really true, it could very well turn out that there is, it's just a very complicated thing to study. Maybe you're right and self love can be found without transitioning, but where are these people who've been able to repress this?

I'll tell you - they're coming out now in their 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s having been forced to live a lie that entire time.



Some people are literally born a chimera of two sexes, we know this because there are quite frequently obvious signs, men who grow breasts, women with testes, but what's to stop it from affecting a persons brain as well? It's possible to be born with a male brain in a female body or the other way around.

Genetics is messy and sometimes you get strange results, but to call that a disease? You'd be calling everyone with detached earlobes diseased and measuring skull shape before long. There is no such thing as genetic purity.

I am talking about those who are genetically male or female (cis is the term, I think) and decide to alter their gender, not those who are born with genes for both sexes.

 

[TheVrolok]

Since this appears to fall into the category of things Greenman has an emotional reaction to but has done zero research about why don't you look for some non nutter sources and see if you can get some answers to your questions?

By your own admission here on numerous topics you are frequently uninformed. Take some action to fix that problem.

Seriously, is Greenman UC's alt account? Some people are so blissfully ignorant and seem to be proud of it.

 

[TheVrolok]

I am talking about those who are genetically male or female (cis is the term, I think) and decide to alter their gender, not those who are born with genes for both sexes.

You think sex gene karyotype is that simple, or the only determination of sex? And that sex dichotomous differences are absolute? You may wanna do some research.

The Dunning Kruger in these threads always reaches epic proportions.

 

[dank69]

So now you are implying that ones genetically determined sex is a "genetic defect" if it doesnt align with one's gender? There is still a big difference between taking steps to counteract a genetic defect that causes a disease vs altering one's genetically determined sex/gender.

Do me a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. This is the second time in this thread. If you can't argue against my stated position, maybe your argument isn't as strong as you think. My position is that if we are capable of controlling gene expression then that is not a bad thing.

 

[Indus]

So now you are implying that ones genetically determined sex is a "genetic defect" if it doesnt align with one's gender?

Yes it is. I'm married to one..

She's known since age 3 she was born in the wrong body.

Her parents have tried to harm her, kill her, but she a survivor. She's been persistent that she was born in the wrong body, not to rebel, not to fight with anyone.. its just who she is.

She eventually ran away from home and transitioned by herself and now has been living in her gender for over 15+ years.

Who the fuck is Trump to tell her she's defective?

 

[zzyzxroad]

Yes it is. I'm married to one..

She's known since age 3 she was born in the wrong body.

Her parents have tried to harm her, kill her, but she a survivor. She's been persistent that she was born in the wrong body, not to rebel, not to fight with anyone.. its just who she is.

She eventually ran away from home and transitioned by herself and now has been living in her gender for over 15+ years.

Who the fuck is Trump to tell her she's defective?

This is a great point. In my entire life I have no real experience with someone who has go through the transition. Maybe people like myself should take the time to get to know people who have if they want to form a strong opinion on the subject.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Yes it is. I'm married to one..

She's known since age 3 she was born in the wrong body.

Her parents have tried to harm her, kill her, but she a survivor. She's been persistent that she was born in the wrong body, not to rebel, not to fight with anyone.. its just who she is.

She eventually ran away from home and transitioned by herself and now has been living in her gender for over 15+ years.

Who the fuck is Trump to tell her she's defective?

Much like gender, this is not a binary issue. Is it not conceivable to live in a world that respects the rights of your wife to exist, while also acknowledging that we probably don’t want athletes with the physical genetic advantages of men competing against women or perhaps its premature to assetively explore physical or hormonal corrective action at a time when kids are still exploring and defining their identity.

 

[dank69]

Much like gender, this is not a binary issue. Is it not conceivable to live in a world that respects the rights of your wife to exist, while also acknowledging that we probably don’t want athletes with the physical genetic advantages of men competing against women or perhaps its premature to assetively explore physical or hormonal corrective action at a time when kids are still exploring and defining their identity.

Maybe it is more important to question why we split sports based on sex in the first place and what people actually want when they feel the need to compete.

Take a female athlete for example who loses to a transgender woman. Is she no longer the best woman? She was never the best because she can't even compete with men let alone beat them. Is the desire for the prize any less vain than a person that wants to look like they feel?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Maybe it is more important to question why we split sports based on sex in the first place and what people actually want when they feel the need to compete.

Take a female athlete for example who loses to a transgender woman. Is she no longer the best woman? She was never the best because she can't even compete with men let alone beat them. Is the desire for the prize any less vain than a person that wants to look like they feel?

Not an easy question to answer. At one point, our society decided it was appropriate to seperate athletes by a gender binary, because on average, you do not want men competing against women due to the inherent physical implications.

I am well aware that not all men and women are equal. Then again, look how the Battle of the Sexes matches tend to end up.

 

[dank69]

Not an easy question to answer. At one point, our society decided it was appropriate to seperate athletes by a gender binary, because on average, you do not want men competing against women due to the inherent physical implications.

I am well aware that not all men and women are equal. Then again, look how the Battle of the Sexes matches tend to end up.

Yes, we know why we've done things this way, but we must always question if maybe there is a better way as we gain more knowledge.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Yes, we know why we've done things this way, but we must always question if maybe there is a better way as we gain more knowledge.

What knowledge is there to gain? We know how biology works. We know that on average men serve an evolutionary function that gives them physical characteristics that are advantageous.

 

[ondma]

Do me a favor and stop putting words in my mouth. This is the second time in this thread. If you can't argue against my stated position, maybe your argument isn't as strong as you think. My position is that if we are capable of controlling gene expression then that is not a bad thing.

Well at least you finally stated your position without muddying the water with ridiculous inferences. Controlling gene expression, in a general sense, has both potential for both huge benefits and also very dangerous. Would you not agree? How about if we can control gene expression for intelligence, but only the rich can afford it. Would you consider that a good thing?

 

[dank69]

What knowledge is there to gain? We know how biology works. We know that on average men serve an evolutionary function that gives them physical characteristics that are advantageous.

We know how biology works? Is that a joke? We are just beginning to scratch the surface of genetics.

 

[dank69]

Well at least you finally stated your position without muddying the water with ridiculous inferences. Controlling gene expression, in a general sense, has both potential for both huge benefits and also very dangerous. Would you not agree? How about if we can control gene expression for intelligence, but only the rich can afford it. Would you consider that a good thing?

Of course it is dangerous and we should tread with care and continually discuss how to make sure we regulate what makes sense when it makes sense. Fear, however, should not be a part of that equation.

 

[fskimospy]

What else could it be? A whim? A desire to fuck up your kid cause you don't like him/her? Some sort of punishment?
Why would anyone screw with a child's development in that way?

While reasonable people can certainly disagree on the wisdom of that treatment the idea that it is for the sake of vanity is deeply ignorant.

 

[Starbuck1975]

We know how biology works? Is that a joke? We are just beginning to scratch the surface of genetics.

I qualified my statement with the evolutionary function of biological men. Genetics will answer lingering questions of why and how. I think we know the “what’s”.

 

[dank69]

I qualified my statement with the evolutionary function of biological men. Genetics will answer lingering questions of why and how. I think we know the “what’s”.

We may also be able to overcome the whats

 

[Victorian Gray]

Chemically altering a child's development for vanity. How fucked up is that?

Q: How fucked up is the above statement?
A: Totally.

 

[Victorian Gray]

What else could it be? A whim? A desire to fuck up your kid cause you don't like him/her? Some sort of punishment?
Why would anyone screw with a child's development in that way?

I'm not surprised that you are confused. It's not like there is any scientific knowledge about the issue to learn from.

 

[Anarchist Mae]

I am talking about those who are genetically male or female (cis is the term, I think) and decide to alter their gender, not those who are born with genes for both sexes.

There is plenty wrong with this idea that sex is a binary, because it isn't, and if you were to ask a biologist they'd explain this to you:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1035246030500061184

Much like gender, this is not a binary issue. Is it not conceivable to live in a world that respects the rights of your wife to exist, while also acknowledging that we probably don’t want athletes with the physical genetic advantages of men competing against women or perhaps its premature to assetively explore physical or hormonal corrective action at a time when kids are still exploring and defining their identity.

Most professional sports have standards for hormone levels that cisgender men would not pass. Transgender women who've been HRT for about 2 years on the other hand will, and more to the point after two years of HRT the advantages they have from their male bodies have been reduced. They will have reduced muscle mass, reduced bone density and altered and increased fat distribution, just like any cisgender woman would, except transgender women will have even less testosterone.

This argument is often used as a wedge to drive transgender women out of spaces, it's happened to me in the past, because on the surface it sounds completely reasonable - you absolutely do not want men competing in womens sports, and it seems absurd to let people born as men do that.

However I'm not quite sure what it has to do with most transgender people. I'm not a professional athlete, I'm a software engineer, so why do people come up to me and say 'what about sports' all the damn time?

The answer is sadly simple, it allows us to be otherised without ever touching on the realities of our lives.

You might consider this particular discussion something worth having, but in reality the problem has already been solved, and it only ever affected a minority (LGBTQIA+) of a minority (trans) of a minority (professional athletes) in the first place.

 

[Starbuck1975]

We may also be able to overcome the whats

What if overcoming the “what’s” results in genetically coding the “what’s” out of existence?

 

[dank69]

What if overcoming the “what’s” results in genetically coding the “what’s” out of existence?

I don't think that would be in our collective best interests so I don't think we need to worry about that.

 

[Greenman]

I'm curious what your take is on completely non scientific organizations that have been around for thousands of years "fucking up" their kids.

I don't know what organizations you're talking about. Right off hand the only group I can think of that wants to chemically alter children is the AMA with their vaccine programs. Personally, I think those are a pretty good idea. I have some anecdotal evidence of schools that want to drug young boys for acting like young boys, but I don't believe that's a widespread issue.
If you're including mentally fucking with kids, we've been doing that since the first dad that could speak told his son that he'd never amount to anything. On a world wide scale, religion has to be the number two offender of screwing over kids, though that's almost collateral damage when compared to the amount of killing done in the name of God.