Trump shutdown delayed work on software fix for 737 MAX unexpected nosedive problem

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,715
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Video:


and article:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/13/politics/boeing-737-max-8-software/index.html

US officials say the recent government shutdown played a part in the delay of Boeing's software update for its 737 Max aircraft, which has been grounded by airlines and countries around the world after two deadly accidents in the past five months, the Wall Street Journal reported.

Boeing announced Monday it had been working on a software fix for the 737 Max aircraft over "the past several months and in the aftermath" of Lion Air Flight 610 that went down in late October over the Java Sea off Indonesia, killing 189 passengers. The process was underway before the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 crash over the weekend, which killed 157 people and also involved a 737 Max. Both flights crashed minutes into their journeys.

The circumstances of the crashes remain under investigation.

Boeing, which said it was working with the Federal Aviation Administration "on development, planning and certification of the software enhancement," said the fix will be on 737 Max planes no later than April.

But the company's software update had initially been expected in early January, the Journal reported.

Citing people familiar with the details, the Journal reported that discussions between the FAA and Boeing about the software fix dragged on, in part because of "differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues."

Boeing and FAA officials also couldn't agree on how extensive the software enhancement should be, the newspaper reported. US officials also said the recent government shutdown, the longest in US history, delayed work on the update for five weeks, the Journal noted.

Sen. Richard Blumenthal, who sits on the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation committee, said the shutdown "absolutely aggravated and exacerbated the failures of the FAA and insisted on a quicker time table for installing new software dealing with the sensors."

"This problem is not a technological equivalent of rocket science," the Connecticut Democrat told reporters on Capitol Hill Wednesday. "They had the new software. They knew of the problem with the sensors. The airline should be held accountable, but the FAA has a responsibility to act right away."

The FAA was one of the agencies affected by the government shutdown, which began on December 22 and spanned 35 days. The agency had to recall thousands of its aviation inspectors from furlough over safety concerns.

The FAA determined that the delay in the update was acceptable because its experts and Boeing deemed there was no imminent safety threat, an unnamed source briefed on the discussions told the Journal.

Boeing declined to comment to CNN about the Wall Street Journal's reporting.

President Donald Trump announced on Wednesday that the US would be grounding 737 Max 8 and 9 planes effective immediately.

The FAA and Boeing say the software upgrade that's due in April will give pilots greater control in case problems emerge with the planes' safety systems.

Boeing said the company plans to include an update to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law.

"The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabilizer trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading, and provides a limit to the stabilizer command in order to retain elevator authority," Boeing said.

The software fix will also include updates to pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training.

A new flight control system

The maneuvering characteristics augmentation system is a new feature to Boeing's Max planes. It's a system that automatically lowers the nose of the plane when it detects from its external angle of attack sensors that the aircraft is flying too slowly or steeply, and at risk of stalling.

AOA sensors send information to the plane's computers about the angle of the plane's nose relative to the oncoming air to help determine whether the plane is about to stall.

The pilots on the Lion Air flight had repeatedly fought to override the MCAS, which pulled the plane's nose down more than two dozen times, according to a preliminary report released in November by Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee.

The report said the system was responding to incorrect data transmitted by an AOA sensor, which had proved faulty on earlier flights and had been replaced.

Lion Air's operational director claimed Boeing's operational manual for the Max 8 didn't contain adequate information about the new MCAS system. Boeing Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg told Fox Business Network at the time that the information was available as part of the training manual.

A week after the Lion Air crash, Boeing warned airlines about how to address erroneous readings related to the plane's external sensors.



Apparently this is why he tweeted about planes being safer when they weren't fancy.. just trying to distract and cover his tracks..

Aren't you glad we have an idiot running the government as an incompetent business?

It's time we realized the only emergency we have as a country is a lunatic with power and an ego.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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I'm shocked that Trump's shutdown had consequences he couldn't understand, which is pretty much anything. How strange it is that those who want the wall killed people on airplanes. I'm sure it was worth it- to them.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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I'm shocked that Trump's shutdown had consequences he couldn't understand, which is pretty much anything. How strange it is that those who want the wall killed people on airplanes. I'm sure it was worth it- to them.
Mostly brown people so no big deal. Also second-hand smoke kills more Americans every day than the number of Americans killed on these planes so MAGA. Also the economy and unemployment is better than it has ever been so you can't impeach.
 
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dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,635
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Mostly brown people so no big deal. Also second-hand smoke kills more Americans every day than the number of Americans killed on these planes so MAGA. Also the economy and unemployment is better than it has ever been so you can't impeach.

Don't forget "Obama did it too".
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
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During the shutdown I mused about the shitshow we'd have if there were a plane crash. Well, now here we are but at this point I doubt it stirs much up.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,715
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During the shutdown I mused about the shitshow we'd have if there were a plane crash. Well, now here we are but at this point I doubt it stirs much up.

Government shutdowns are like necromancer's dots, not wizards nukes! :p
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,920
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So Boeing and the FAA knew there was a problem and didn't ground the planes, and this is Trumps fault.
Maybe they should have temporally disabled the piece of code that was noted as "crash and burn".
 
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bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
6,885
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I'm shocked that Trump's shutdown had consequences he couldn't understand, which is pretty much anything. How strange it is that those who want the wall killed people on airplanes. I'm sure it was worth it- to them.
I'm shocked that Boeing pushed a plane to market that could potentially have unexpected nosedive problems. Didn't they test this plane thoroughly before they decided to produce it?
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,715
8,175
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I'm shocked that Boeing pushed a plane to market that could potentially have unexpected nosedive problems. Didn't they test this plane thoroughly before they decided to produce it?

I've seen a few documentaries that boeing workers have great concerns on the quality of rushed planes, especially the ones manufactured in South Carolina.. it does seem like that they just did a quick fix in software that they thought would work without really testing it, in effect using the people as live guinea pigs.

From what I've read on CNN, it seems 2 planes had the nose dive problem but the pilots were competent enough to disengage the auto pilot and override it right away.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
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This disaster is on Boeing moreso than Trump (besides we haven’t yet ruled out pilot error or borked maintenance) but I do want our President to think long and hard about why shutdowns are so stupid.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
11,715
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This disaster is on Boeing moreso than Trump (besides we haven’t yet ruled out pilot error or borked maintenance) but I do want our President to think long and hard about why shutdowns are so stupid.

I personally think the 737 is outdated.. its 1960's technology that's still being used today while even a 25 year technology like the 777 is way better and way more reliable.

They shoulda just put in the time to make a new plane rather than copy and paste to increase seating.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
6,885
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I've seen a few documentaries that boeing workers have great concerns on the quality of rushed planes, especially the ones manufactured in South Carolina.. it does seem like that they just did a quick fix in software that they thought would work without really testing it, in effect using the people as live guinea pigs.

From what I've read on CNN, it seems 2 planes had the nose dive problem but the pilots were competent enough to disengage the auto pilot and override it right away.
Honestly I do not believe the government shutdown caused the plane in Ethiopia to crash. This is a Boeing problem and they need to fix it. The CNN article you linked to is placing blame in the wrong place. CNN should be putting its power and pressure on Boeing and asking them why they manufactured a shitty plane that has a sudden tendency to want to nosedive into the ground.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,527
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So Boeing and the FAA knew there was a problem and didn't ground the planes, and this is Trumps fault.
Maybe they should have temporally disabled the piece of code that was noted as "crash and burn".

Close. Its kind of like 9/11 where we should blame the perpetrators but at the same time, the stupidity of the commander in chief led to such a disaster not being prevented.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,671
28,824
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Honestly I do not believe the government shutdown caused the plane in Ethiopia to crash. This is a Boeing problem and they need to fix it. The CNN article you linked to is placing blame in the wrong place. CNN should be putting its power and pressure on Boeing and asking them why they manufactured a shitty plane that has a sudden tendency to want to nosedive into the ground.
The shutdown caused a delay implementing a patch scheduled for end of Jan. Trump was responsible for the shutdown and you want to absolve him of blame?

If the patch goes in as scheduled those people live.

Boeing also needs to answer for the defect.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,235
10,810
136
I personally think the 737 is outdated.. its 1960's technology that's still being used today while even a 25 year technology like the 777 is way better and way more reliable.

They shoulda just put in the time to make a new plane rather than copy and paste to increase seating.
Just for the record, the 737 has better reliability than the 777. The problem being addressed here is also with a newly designed subsystem, not with the basic airframe.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
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I personally think the 737 is outdated.. its 1960's technology that's still being used today while even a 25 year technology like the 777 is way better and way more reliable.

They shoulda just put in the time to make a new plane rather than copy and paste to increase seating.

This is just ignorant. The 737-MAX has new avionics, new engines, revised wings, etc, etc, etc. There is a reason the program cost billions.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
26,670
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Maybe they should have temporally disabled the piece of code that was noted as "crash and burn".

An update to plane OS 10 is ready to apply, would you like to apply now or wait?

Not defending Boeing but these are incredibly complex systems. Also after the first crash the take was there were other issues with the aircraft causing invalid data to be introduced into the system contributing to the crash which should be a very rare occurrence. Besides the flight profiles being similar we have very few details from the latest crash, but based on that alone grounding the plane is an appropriate measure.