News Trump: Mar-a-Lago just raided by FBI

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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,970
5,586
136
What happens if Trump gets his special master to review the documents? Does this person make unilateral decisions on whether or not the material is used in court, or just on the validity of the classification, or if it's protected under attorney client privilege?

I would also assume that this would be a very time consuming process as each document would have to be evaluated.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,286
16,767
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Yep. Like I said for years I have said he will be indicted and everyone says ‘nahhhh’. One of those reasons is they think the DOJ will let him get away with it.

I maintain you are all wrong and it was obvious from the start. He will be indicted, probably multiple times.

We will see.
I suspect no charges. They’ve achieved what they wanted. No more secret stuff in his presence. I predict silence from here on, other than the Special Marshall or whatever their called. Only reason that’s happening is because Trump cried enough to get one.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Yep. Like I said for years I have said he will be indicted and everyone says ‘nahhhh’. One of those reasons is they think the DOJ will let him get away with it.

I maintain you are all wrong and it was obvious from the start. He will be indicted, probably multiple times.

Indicted and suffering any real punishment or being found guilty at all are much different things. He was “indicted “ in Congress and skated twice.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,286
16,767
136
What happens if Trump gets his special master to review the documents? Does this person make unilateral decisions on whether or not the material is used in court, or just on the validity of the classification, or if it's protected under attorney client privilege?

I would also assume that this would be a very time consuming process as each document would have to be evaluated.
I think the special master dude is someone who is security cleared but doesn’t work for Justice Department and simply says “Yes or No”
As in No documents the documents weren’t secured properly, No they didn’t leave the property or whatever.


Edit: I was wrong
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,828
5,009
136
What happens if Trump gets his special master to review the documents? Does this person make unilateral decisions on whether or not the material is used in court, or just on the validity of the classification, or if it's protected under attorney client privilege?

I would also assume that this would be a very time consuming process as each document would have to be evaluated.
Nothing to do with classification. All they would do is ensure there wasn’t any personal documents swept up in the search. All US property confiscated can’t be claimed by the orange monkey.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,780
1,229
136
it has been covered in the news, but LegalEagle does a fairly straightforward but slightly longer vid on it. [indexed to relevant.]
the special master is usually only there to cover attny-client privilege when a lawyer gets their records seized in warrant search. since the govt will collect a bunch of stuff that may belong to a bunch of different clients who arent under investigation, a master goes thru and makes sure no one else's info gets seen. since the records were from drumpf's home, it doesnt really apply so any master will go thru pretty quickly unless drumpf was holding on to other peoples' privileged documents.
exec priv doesnt apply since it resides with the office of the potus, not the person. so drumpf can request privilege, but Biden will just refuse the request.

this at most, delays things by a few weeks.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I think it will be a slam dunk. The feds will be able to design the indictment to guarantee the trial is held in DC, the statutes in question are clear, and for most of them whether or not the material is classified is irrelevant.

Also I don’t agree that any of the legal issues here are complicated. Trump was informed he had federal government property in his possession and he repeatedly refused to return it and lied about it. He might try the ‘my lawyers deceived me’ stance but all the other stuff like psychic declassification or his imagined right to these materials won’t matter.

I do agree with you that he may well be able to draw trials and appeals out for years, perhaps so long that he never spends a day in prison, but I think the actual criminal case here will be a pretty easy one.

In theory, a defendant could receive bail while an appeal is pending, but this rarely occurs. Trump would have to convince the court that he is not a flight risk. If he is convicted and sentenced, he will go to jail and reside there while appeals are resolved. The main issue is really how long it takes for charges to be filed, and how long it takes for the matter to go to trial after that. Best guess is that a prosecution of Trump will happen shortly after the midterms.

So far as venue goes, the prosecution decides the venue from among those that are permissible. When DoJ puts it in DC, Trump's attorneys could argue a change of venue but will probably lose. "The people around here don't like my politics" isn't such a great argument for change of venue.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I wouldn't pop the champagne just yet ...

While this latest case does seriously increase those chances beyond what was already in the news (1-6, voting stuff, etc.), there are still some MAJOR hurdles still to come.

The first (and biggest IMO) is any reference to classified material in any of the court proceedings. The affidavit both downplays and upsells the existence of it. On one hand there's a footnote stating that the info need not be classified, but also references to precedents where courts held that classified info was covered under the relevant section of code. Also, they went to great detail to list out the counts/pages of each type in order to get the judge to grant the warrant. If it does end up that DoJ wants to introduce it, they just can't enter it as exhibit A-Z. Each piece has to be reviewed AND APPROVED by the owning agency. If there's a HUMINT piece in there, CIA can just say "nah, we're good with that not being revealed any more" and it's not getting in. Then even if the agencies agree and it does get in, you enter a whole new world of hurt regarding who can/will get access to it. Have to have a defense member that is cleared. Takes time. Have to worry about members of the court as well. What about the jury? The extra procedural steps are an enormous time drain. Now, if the DoJ doesn't choose to use it to avoid all that (which is where I think they're going) you run the PR risk of a huge chorus of "See, there wasn't any classified info in the boxes. It's all a witch-hunt blah blah" from 40% of the country. Of course that shouldn't matter in the case itself, but ...

The second is where the trial (if any) will be held. It's either gonna be DC or FL, but there will be a fight over that with FPOTUS obviously wanting FL.

The third is the jury, which weighs heavily (but not entirely) on issue #2. With FL you're almost guaranteed to get a sympathetic MAGAt on the panel. Enough said. With DC, you're almost assuredly going to get a very blue jury (an argument they'll use in #2). Even then, there's still a chance that one member isn't buying it for whatever reasons. This isn't the Manafort case by any stretch. That was a fairly obvious slam dunk with $$$ and paperwork trails. This will be one of the most complex criminal cases, both in previously unexplored legal issues related to the office, and in battling through the bullshit that will be thrown up as a distraction.


For the record, I think he will now be indicted for something related to this but either won't be convicted, or won't serve any sentence due to legal challenges dragging it out beyond his lifetime. Either way, he'll still be getting away with it. And fundraising all the while, which is his main goal anyway.

Trying a case based on classified documents is done all the time. If it isn't a problem for other defendants, it won't be a problem with Trump either.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,321
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For years I said Trump will be indicted and everyone said ‘lol he will get away with everything’.

Looking forward to this.
From the time as a clild when I first comprehended that people like Trump exist, and him in particular, right down to this present moment, the fact that he could flout the laws of human decency, much less live a life envied by millions, I believe, has revealed a state of affairs in our national life that has left profoundly dangerous psychic scars.

Even monkeys will rebel when asked to accept rewards for playing a game when compared to others they get the shaft.

I have had, and by inference, we have all had to live so long, in my opinion, with a man whose very avoidance of consequence has left way way way too many a broken monkey in his wake.

And like you, I could never wrap my head around the fact that crimes of the magnitude that Trump has committed would not eventually do him in, yet still, even though now looking more, and perhaps even most likely to finally be happening, conviction is still not a done deal.

I hate myself for that. I have never fully awakened. I do not know how to fix what allows Trump ego to exist. I won’t try to explain that other than I wind up blaming the US.

I take small comfort in the fact that I knew who Trump was lone ago as news from NY filtered out, and appreciate all who could see him as an anathema, but that man this been the source of enormous damage and should have been stopped long ago.

My concern can be summed up, I guess, as too little and way too late, like in still waiting.

They need to bring down as many as they can who enable him. Our justice system also needs work.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,985
7,502
136
It seems to me the ideal outcome of Trump having to steal highly sensitive gov't owned documents is that he is not damaged enough by his being investigated that he will still get the nod to run yet damaged enough to where he will lose badly and take down a lot of other fanatical sycophant conservatives running for office with him.

At this point in time it seems this scenario is quite possible due to Trump's notorious delaying tactics being able to keep him from being disqualified until after the smoke clears from the polling places and all the tallying is done.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I hate myself for that. I have never fully awakened. I do not know how to fix what allows Trump ego to exist. I won’t try to explain that other than I wind up blaming the US.

Our culture engourages shallowness and materialism. Everyone wants wealth, and measures their self-worth by acquisition of it. And everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame. Trump is the personification of that more than anyone. There is no data to back it up, but I suspect our culture produces more pathological narcissists than most if not all others.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,015
8,252
136
I think the special master dude is someone who is security cleared but doesn’t work for Justice Department and simply says “Yes or No”
As in No documents the documents weren’t secured properly, No they didn’t leave the property or whatever.
When Michael Cohen and Rudy ghouliani (Giuliani) homes and offices were searched by the FBI, a special master was utilized to sort through documents found. This is because they, as lawyers, represented a number of clients, who are in no way under investigation for whatever the search warrants are seeking, and this was to protect those clients, who simply used the same lawyer trump used.

Trump has no clients that need to be 'protected' by the purview of a 'special master', other than Trump himself, and perhaps Putin.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,321
6,363
126
Our culture engourages shallowness and materialism. Everyone wants wealth, and measures their self-worth by acquisition of it. And everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame. Trump is the personification of that more than anyone. There is no data to back it up, but I suspect our culture produces more pathological narcissists than most if not all others.
I think it's related to a conflation of American exceptionalism and nationalism. Owing to factors that can have very little to do with one's level of personal development, and far more to the opportunities that history has accidentally placed in our lap, many ill gotten by ambition and greed, many simply by geography, the US has historically and even now still remains a dream for the world as a place where talent can find expression and be rewarded by great success.

American exceptionalism, in many ways, then, is real. What is not real, however, is that anything in the nature of the exceptional transfer, thereby, simply by being an US citizen. And the first thing that happens to people with low self esteem and nothing much to show by way of the the work one needs to put in to actually acquire some sort of counter to feelings of incompetence is to look for some ego identification to replace what is missing. And what better thing to seize on than a nationalism that says if you are a real American that automatically makes you exceptional.

In short, where exceptional rewards for exceptional abilities are possible, the door to narcissism opens wide. Anyone who acquires a fortune by inheritance, even one inherited from a crime boss, can easily imagine that it is his own self worth by which he acquired a Midas Touch.

And all of this the result of feelings of inadequacy reaching the level of such desperation and pain that anything at all that will offer some palliative will be grasped with intensity. Money is the obvious answer to that game. The value of money is that you can buy a sense of physical security. But it also buys indifference when the former is all that one wants.

I think you are right about producing more narcissists and my opinion why.
 
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NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,048
2,654
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I think it will be a slam dunk. The feds will be able to design the indictment to guarantee the trial is held in DC, the statutes in question are clear, and for most of them whether or not the material is classified is irrelevant.

Also I don’t agree that any of the legal issues here are complicated. Trump was informed he had federal government property in his possession and he repeatedly refused to return it and lied about it. He might try the ‘my lawyers deceived me’ stance but all the other stuff like psychic declassification or his imagined right to these materials won’t matter.

I do agree with you that he may well be able to draw trials and appeals out for years, perhaps so long that he never spends a day in prison, but I think the actual criminal case here will be a pretty easy one.
Actually, Trump could be in jail during all of his appeals as he is most definitely considered a flight risk. If he is charged with a felony or multiple counts, and possibly treason if the stories are true about him giving out info on agents that resulted in their deaths.. I see just that happening.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,282
10,879
136
We will see.
I suspect no charges. They’ve achieved what they wanted. No more secret stuff in his presence. I predict silence from here on, other than the Special Marshall or whatever their called. Only reason that’s happening is because Trump cried enough to get one.
There is no way to prove he doesn't still have anything. That shit could be on thousands on USB drives or have copies of it anywhere.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,299
12,630
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When Michael Cohen and Rudy ghouliani (Giuliani) homes and offices were searched by the FBI, a special master was utilized to sort through documents found. This is because they, as lawyers, represented a number of clients, who are in no way under investigation for whatever the search warrants are seeking, and this was to protect those clients, who simply used the same lawyer trump used.

Trump has no clients that need to be 'protected' by the purview of a 'special master', other than Trump himself, and perhaps Putin.

But, like it or not, Trump's communications with HIS lawyer(s) are protected.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,197
2,266
136
it has been covered in the news, but LegalEagle does a fairly straightforward but slightly longer vid on it. [indexed to relevant.]
the special master is usually only there to cover attny-client privilege when a lawyer gets their records seized in warrant search. since the govt will collect a bunch of stuff that may belong to a bunch of different clients who arent under investigation, a master goes thru and makes sure no one else's info gets seen. since the records were from drumpf's home, it doesnt really apply so any master will go thru pretty quickly unless drumpf was holding on to other peoples' privileged documents.
exec priv doesnt apply since it resides with the office of the potus, not the person. so drumpf can request privilege, but Biden will just refuse the request.

this at most, delays things by a few weeks.


That’s how trump rolls. Then again, maybe his tax documents were mixed in with the classified docs by mistake. :)
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,015
8,252
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But, like it or not, Trump's communications with HIS lawyer(s) are protected.
Valid poing, BUT why has two of his former lawyers homes and offices been searched by the FBI? I guess direct communication between client/lawyer would be off limits, but that doesn't change the fact that possession of Top Secret and higher docs in an insecure location won't get his ass in a real jam, and if Ghouliani's or Sydney Powell, or any of his other lawyers, prints are on them, it goes from client/lawyer to co-defendants.

It's almost a certainty they are going to fingerprint those documents, and if Ghouliani's print are found on them? We know he has been to Mar-a-Lago.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,161
136
Of all the things I imagined Trump going to jail for, paperwork was never one of them.
Funny, isn't it?