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Trump considering firing Rosenstein to check Mueller

Jan 25, 2011
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If he does that and congress still takes no actions to protect Mueller's role then I have no doubt he's gone. They keep saying nothing is needed as there's no sign of Trump trying to fire Mueller.... this would be that sign.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
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If he does that and congress still takes no actions to protect Mueller's role then I have no doubt he's gone. They keep saying nothing is needed as there's no sign of Trump trying to fire Mueller.... this would be that sign.
Congress isn't going to do shit. I think we all know this, but refuse to believe it.


Dark days ahead.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
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Is there a political recourse if Congress refuses to impeach on something like this? Like do we have an option of FBI inquisition or are we full-on rioting in the streets and burning the capitol down?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
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Is there a political recourse if Congress refuses to impeach on something like this? Like do we have an option of FBI inquisition or are we full-on rioting in the streets and burning the capitol down?
There is no political recourse and this is what I've always said is the most likely option. Trump doesn't need to fire Mueller, he just fires Mueller's boss and replaces him with an apparatchik who prevents Mueller from effectively investigating the president. This way he avoids some of the worst political blowback but still prevents investigators from uncovering his criminal activity and prosecuting his associates.

I predict if/when this happens Republicans will do nothing, instead saying that since Mueller's investigation goes on there's nothing to worry about.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
3,970
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There is no political recourse and this is what I've always said is the most likely option. Trump doesn't need to fire Mueller, he just fires Mueller's boss and replaces him with an apparatchik who prevents Mueller from effectively investigating the president. This way he avoids some of the worst political blowback but still prevents investigators from uncovering his criminal activity and prosecuting his associates.

I predict if/when this happens Republicans will do nothing, instead saying that since Mueller's investigation goes on there's nothing to worry about.
Anyone who still supports the president, or the Republican party after that point will further cement that they value party over country.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
22,680
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I predict we'll have a helluva lot more liberal 2A fans if we hit a Constitutional crisis.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,877
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Is there a political recourse if Congress refuses to impeach on something like this? Like do we have an option of FBI inquisition or are we full-on rioting in the streets and burning the capitol down?
The problem with Rosenstein is that Trump can fire him without cause. That's undisputed. There is however a problem as his replacement will be approved and this time the solid Republican lines have broken.

What's hilarious is Trump's tweet where he says he doesn't obstruct unless he's fighting back. Well, that's kind of what obstruction is all about. Saying that and then firing anyone connects his stated willingness to obstruct with a demonstrated and significant act.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
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The problem with Rosenstein is that Trump can fire him without cause. That's undisputed. There is however a problem as his replacement will be approved and this time the solid Republican lines have broken.

What's hilarious is Trump's tweet where he says he doesn't obstruct unless he's fighting back. Well, that's kind of what obstruction is all about. Saying that and then firing anyone connects his stated willingness to obstruct with a demonstrated and significant act.
It really does. He's pretty good at burying himself succinctly.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,120
2,702
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There is no political recourse and this is what I've always said is the most likely option. Trump doesn't need to fire Mueller, he just fires Mueller's boss and replaces him with an apparatchik who prevents Mueller from effectively investigating the president. This way he avoids some of the worst political blowback but still prevents investigators from uncovering his criminal activity and prosecuting his associates.

I predict if/when this happens Republicans will do nothing, instead saying that since Mueller's investigation goes on there's nothing to worry about.
I don't know if Mueller will take it but the solution to this is to release all the information he can and leak the rest. If you are blocked by politics take it to the court of public opinion.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
20,048
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The problem with Rosenstein is that Trump can fire him without cause. That's undisputed. There is however a problem as his replacement will be approved and this time the solid Republican lines have broken.

What's hilarious is Trump's tweet where he says he doesn't obstruct unless he's fighting back. Well, that's kind of what obstruction is all about. Saying that and then firing anyone connects his stated willingness to obstruct with a demonstrated and significant act.
What I imagine Trump will do is unilaterally replace him under the vacancies act. While people will sue to say that appointment is illegal 1) it's uncertain they will prevail and 2) it will give his new appointee plenty of time to try and sabotage Mueller while the court case is underway. Our only hope would be an emergency stay.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
4,193
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I honestly don't know what will happen if Trump fires rosenstein. There is always the issue that whatever crimes mueller is investigating may be prosecuted by the next administration I suppose.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
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I don't know if Mueller will take it but the solution to this is to release all the information he can and leak the rest. If you are blocked by politics take it to the court of public opinion.
I hope someone in Mueller's office does so if that happens. I'm not kidding when I say I think this represents an existential threat to our system of government.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
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I hope someone in Mueller's office does so if that happens. I'm not kidding when I say I think this represents an existential threat to our system of government.
No, you're right on that I think. It's the closest thing we've had to an attempted ... coup? or attempt at dictatorial overthrow? or whatever you'd call it when the head of the executive branch basically usurps 'the everything'. Nixon would have been second, I guess.

As sad as it is to say, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the situation got 'handled' by some random citizen. I really, really don't want something like that to be the final news headline of this dumpster fire.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,352
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No, you're right on that I think. It's the closest thing we've had to an attempted ... coup? or attempt at dictatorial overthrow? or whatever you'd call it when the head of the executive branch basically usurps 'the everything'. Nixon would have been second, I guess.

As sad as it is to say, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the situation got 'handled' by some random citizen. I really, really don't want something like that to be the final news headline of this dumpster fire.
Isn't it a argument by 2A absolutists is citizens have to protect themselves from federal government tyranny? I believe a GOP senate candidate once called is 2A remedies.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
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Isn't it a argument by 2A absolutists is citizens have to protect themselves from federal government tyranny? I believe a GOP senate candidate once called is 2A remedies.
Yeah it is, but it casts a pretty dark pall over the entire institution of our government if we have to acknowledge that a pseudo dictator got elected, and had to be physically removed by lethal force. I mean, you don't get much worse than that short of 'nuclear launch detected'.

But I suppose, watering the tree of liberty, and all that jazz.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
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Yeah it is, but it casts a pretty dark pall over the entire institution of our government if we have to acknowledge that a pseudo dictator got elected, and had to be physically removed by lethal force. I mean, you don't get much worse than that short of 'nuclear launch detected'.

But I suppose, watering the tree of liberty, and all that jazz.
It would basically mean that unified government is too dangerous to ever have again as it is a recipe for unchecked criminal behavior by the executive. Of course absent unified government we aren’t able to pass much, if any effective legislation.

That’s kind of the game right there. Either unchecked criminality or paralyzed government. That’s a recipe for collapse.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
104,174
18,796
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The problem with Rosenstein is that Trump can fire him without cause. That's undisputed. There is however a problem as his replacement will be approved and this time the solid Republican lines have broken.

What's hilarious is Trump's tweet where he says he doesn't obstruct unless he's fighting back. Well, that's kind of what obstruction is all about. Saying that and then firing anyone connects his stated willingness to obstruct with a demonstrated and significant act.
Yep. I do think that much of this is Mueller intentionally playing Donald like a fiddle. It makes his job that much easier. I also think that the raid on Cohen was done because at this point, with what they knew to be obtainable, there is very little that Trump can effectively do now. The FBI has the information. The state AG has the information. Fire Mueller or not, Trump is fucking toast if he is ever going to be toast. Firing Mueller or Rosenstein would probably just expedite the situation.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
3,970
146
It would basically mean that unified government is too dangerous to ever have again as it is a recipe for unchecked criminal behavior by the executive. Of course absent unified government we aren’t able to pass much, if any effective legislation.

That’s kind of the game right there. Either unchecked criminality or paralyzed government. That’s a recipe for collapse.
I feel like there's other options, it needs to be developed by very, very smart minds though. Implementing changes to how our government works, in terms of either additional checks/balances, limits to certain aspects of certain groups, or even fundamental changes in requirements such as always requiring at minimum a 3 party system could potentially limit the capability of something like this happening again. And by 'something like this' I'm more generally talking... not just the pres firing the DAG to avoid his own investigation.

I do feel like that needs to be an immediate and clear statement by congress though. A president flatly cannot obstruct justice on investigations toward him, or any that may have colluded to him. If someone's under investigation, the pres should *not* be able to halt that investigation. I would include pardons in that.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,352
10,247
136
Yeah it is, but it casts a pretty dark pall over the entire institution of our government if we have to acknowledge that a pseudo dictator got elected, and had to be physically removed by lethal force. I mean, you don't get much worse than that short of 'nuclear launch detected'.

But I suppose, watering the tree of liberty, and all that jazz.
We have to acknowledge we have a bunch of fucking selfish morons who elected a pseudo dictator. Therein lies an equal beef.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
3,970
146
We have to acknowledge we have a bunch of fucking selfish morons who elected a pseudo dictator. Therein lies an equal beef.
We also have to acknowledge that people are emotional, easy to manipulate animals, and address who's trying to pull their strings.

We need to stop hiding our weaknesses, but confront them and deal with them directly. We got fucking played by 3rd parties in 2016, that needs to be addressed before we can heal from it, or it's gonna fester until next cycle.
 

Stokely

Senior member
Jun 5, 2017
837
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The sad and sick part of all that is that Trump isn't smart or clever enough for some long con attempt at dictatorship. But the end result could be the same all because a bunch of easily-fooled voters and a Congress willing to give up all semblance of integrity in the name of team ball.

He's a rich bully who has had people kiss his ass his whole life; those that bow before him in his corporate real estate deals he sues or tries to bankrupt. He's trying the same shtick here as President, he knows nothing else. He's in a world where you must rely on competent people to help you manage things and that's not how he works. The big manager where I work is the same; he has surrounded himself with yes men and the only reason anything gets done are the veterans who basically ignore his bs as best we can. Most of us are looking to leave or have already. The big difference is that pointy-haired boss Trump can tank the world economy and/or kill us all...
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
20,048
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I feel like there's other options, it needs to be developed by very, very smart minds though. Implementing changes to how our government works, in terms of either additional checks/balances, limits to certain aspects of certain groups, or even fundamental changes in requirements such as always requiring at minimum a 3 party system could potentially limit the capability of something like this happening again. And by 'something like this' I'm more generally talking... not just the pres firing the DAG to avoid his own investigation.

I do feel like that needs to be an immediate and clear statement by congress though. A president flatly cannot obstruct justice on investigations toward him, or any that may have colluded to him. If someone's under investigation, the pres should *not* be able to halt that investigation. I would include pardons in that.
I hate to be a downer but I see no plausible path to accomplishing the changes you want.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,104
3,970
146
I hate to be a downer but I see no plausible path to accomplishing the changes you want.
A third, moderate/centrist party, rising from the ashes of this immolation, with the testicular fortitude to actually make changes.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,704
20,048
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A third, moderate/centrist party, rising from the ashes of this immolation, with the testicular fortitude to actually make changes.
Any system where 51% of the vote gives you 100% of the representation will strongly trend towards only two viable parties in any given election. The lack of a viable third party is a consequence of our voting system, which I find it unlikely people will change. (Ranked choice!)
 

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