Trump admin crippled vaccination rollout out of paranoia. Actively lobbied congress against funds.

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
5,720
146
Except the problem is that all the past atrocities and doctors poor treatment of women and minorities don't apply to this. Everyone just gets two doses of the vaccine, and the only difference might be that you get Moderna or Pfizer. What you're trying to suggest is hesitancy created out of irrational fear.

That's mostly his point...

When you poison the well of trust it has long term ramifications.

Also, you're ridiculously naive if you think that type of behavior isn't still an issue:

Plus, I mean, its not like we have another epidemic (opioid addiction) caused by pharma companies being scummy (which also targeted the poor - which are overepresented by persons of color). That's why we need to hammer the fuck out of the companies and people that do that shit.

I know some people that became Turmpers because they got started with anti-vaxxer shit, where that led them to other conspiracies and then they ended up falling for one of the most obviously full of shit big top circus clowns in American history. That's why we need to be very mindful of this behavior, and push for diversity in science, and work to not let things like health care be split based on crap like economics or race. Lack of diversity poisons the well, which cascades throughout society.

It blows my mind how often that I see people citing racist policies and behavior, to support their conspiracy theories that openly (or not always openly) support that same type of racism (everything from access to firearms to vaccines) somehow as a means of protection for themselves against that type of behavior. That is rampant in the overall conspiracy mindset. My point being how much that racist behavior impacts things and leads to the problems. I'm not that concerned about people of color being mindful of the past, as that's their right, even if it can negatively affect them. Considering the previous administration that still has a lot of people in positions that are involved with this, that's just common sense. Its not enough to just waive away those peoples' fears.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PingSpike and pmv

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,817
136
The treatment of persons of color vs. whites in hospital settings, incl. same hospital/Tx/etc., is vastly worse. They're not believed when they complain of the same crap as a white person...whether it be pain, effectiveness of a drug, treatment, whatever...and their outcomes are worse, even starting from the same point. Systemic racism extends deep and wide in this country.

I'm not feeling good today, but there are studies galore that demonstrate this if you'll bother to search.
I'm not disagreeing with that. Seems like that would be a good reason for them to protect themselves from being sent to the hospital to begin with.

Systematic racism is a big deal in medicine, that shouldn't be used an as excuse to not get vaccines. That is just extending that racism by preventing disease in white people and not minorities.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,222
136
Except the problem is that all the past atrocities and doctors poor treatment of women and minorities don't apply to this. Everyone just gets two doses of the vaccine, and the only difference might be that you get Moderna or Pfizer. What you're trying to suggest is hesitancy created out of irrational fear.

Sure it does....or are you of the opinion that every single thing in life is a separate event with no bearing upon anything else? Are you of the opinion that past history doesn't color current responses to issues?

If you are, you're sadly naive....and wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pmv

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Also, you're ridiculously naive if you think that type of behavior isn't still an issue:

I don't recall saying that.

Sure it does....or are you of the opinion that every single thing in life is a separate event with no bearing upon anything else? Are you of the opinion that past history doesn't color current responses to issues?

If you are, you're sadly naive....and wrong.

I'm talking about rational relevance between events. If a minority or woman is worried about whether the doctor will just brush them off, then yes, that's a rational consideration given past (yet still recent) events. What I'm suggesting is that the reasons that you provided don't rationally apply here due to the nature of this entire process. Now, if someone started saying that there's a specific vaccine for black males, then that would be raising some major red flags.

Although, to be clear, I am not doubting that people may use the reasons that you brought up to be hesitant over the vaccine. It would be silly if I suggested/expected that all humans are always rational. I mean.. if we look at things like QAnon, we've seen a lot of irrational garbage floating around recently. :p
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I'm going to ask you to do some research on the subject you speak about....that you seem to have little actual facts to support your assertions.

Tuskegee Experiment
https://www.history.com/news/the-infamous-40-year-tuskegee-study

J. Marion Sims, the "father of gynecology," who had a statue in Central Park until 2018...

Henrietta Lacks...



Maybe with some of that reading you might understand why persons of color might not really want/trust the govt. and vaccinations.

This doesn't mention the early 2010's CIA program of offering free (fake) Hepatitis B vaccinations for children in Pakistan, all the while just using that to hide their trying to obtain DNA evidence of bin Laden's whereabouts. Probably was a useless program, but it surely pissed off a bunch of people of color when the story broke.

Yes, I read about the Tuskegee experiment when I first heard this argument being made. How many black people do you suppose have even heard of the Tuskegee experiment?

I just wonder why it is when white people are anti-vax, everyone just says they're being ignorant. If it's blacks or Muslims, then there must be another reason. I would point out that in the modern world of 2020, all races and creeds pretty much have equal access to information about the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

We're obviously not going to expunge the evil of racism from society any time soon, so what would you suggest to encourage black people to use vaccines, other than whatever we are doing to encourage anyone else to use vaccines?
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,118
10,939
136
Yes, I read about the Tuskegee experiment when I first heard this argument being made. How many black people do you suppose have even heard of the Tuskegee experiment?

I just wonder why it is when white people are anti-vax, everyone just says they're being ignorant. If it's blacks or Muslims, then there must be another reason. I would point out that in the modern world of 2020, all races and creeds pretty much have equal access to information about the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

We're obviously not going to expunge the evil of racism from society any time soon, so what would you suggest to encourage black people to use vaccines, other than whatever we are doing to encourage anyone else to use vaccines?

A lot, is my guess. You think this sort of information doesn't get passed down from one generation to the next?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brainonska511

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
A lot, is my guess. You think this sort of information doesn't get passed down from one generation to the next?

I think that's a bad guess. Knowledge of history, even major world events, is quite poor among all ethnic groups. That study started in the early 1930's and ended in the early 70's.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,649
26,746
136
Yes, I read about the Tuskegee experiment when I first heard this argument being made. How many black people do you suppose have even heard of the Tuskegee experiment?

I just wonder why it is when white people are anti-vax, everyone just says they're being ignorant. If it's blacks or Muslims, then there must be another reason. I would point out that in the modern world of 2020, all races and creeds pretty much have equal access to information about the safety and efficacy of vaccines.

We're obviously not going to expunge the evil of racism from society any time soon, so what would you suggest to encourage black people to use vaccines, other than whatever we are doing to encourage anyone else to use vaccines?
The better question would be how many white people are aware of the Tuskegee experiments. Just like how many white people understand what Juneteenth is. Don’t even begin to think a community doesn’t know how it has been screwed over.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
The better question would be how many white people are aware of the Tuskegee experiments. Just like how many white people understand what Juneteenth is. Don’t even begin to think a community doesn’t know how it has been screwed over.

It was a single incident, and happened a long time ago. There is much information available at everyone's fingertips about the safety and efficacy of vaccines today.

I see no constructive purpose in attempting to justify ignorance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zorba

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,649
26,746
136
It was a single incident, and happened a long time ago. There is much information available at everyone's fingertips about the safety and efficacy of vaccines today.

I see no constructive purpose in attempting to justify ignorance.
We are not talking about ignorance we are talking about distrust. Understanding the source of that mistrust is constructive in building strategies to overcome it. Just dismissing it is obviously ineffective given current trends.

Also belittling their fear by calling it a single incident that happened years ago is really disrespectful. Black men were experimented on without their consent for 40 years and over 100 died. That leaves a mark.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ivwshane and pmv

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,817
136
A lot, is my guess. You think this sort of information doesn't get passed down from one generation to the next?
The problem is that people are currently hammering these past events because they have an antivax agenda, not because they actually want better outcomes for black people.

Meanwhile Israel is pounding the German designed vaccine, even though some of the most horrific medical experiments of all time were conducted on them by the Germans.

I'm not downplaying the horrible things done to blacks and other minorities in the US, but those events are most definitely being amplified this year to enriched a few conmen that don't give a shit about the medical outcomes of those groups.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
We are not talking about ignorance we are talking about distrust. Understanding the source of that mistrust is constructive in building strategies to overcome it. Just dismissing it is obviously ineffective given current trends.

Also belittling their fear by calling it a single incident that happened years ago is really disrespectful. Black men were experimented on without their consent for 40 years and over 100 died. That leaves a mark.

No, we are talking about distrust based on ignorance. White anti-vaxxers don't trust the people manufacturing or administering vaccines either. If they are liberals, it's a corporatist conspiracy. If they are conservatives, it's a government conspiracy. If they are black, it's because of an experiment from a long time ago. None of those are good reasons not to trust vaccines. These vaccines are being given to everyone, not just black people. There is no evidence of black people being affected by them any differently than anyone else. And there is no evidence of any particular harm.

I think they should do whatever outreach and education are appropriate, but at the end of the day, I'm not going to have tremendous sympathy for any of the people refusing to be vaccinated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JD50 and Zorba

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,634
8,522
136
The problem is that people are currently hammering these past events because they have an antivax agenda, not because they actually want better outcomes for black people.

Absolutely. There are always different agendas involved in every topic. Just as plenty of "black nationalist" businessmen will emphasise ideas like "black self-sufficiency" because they want to increase their profits when they don't have a good product. But that doesn't change the reasons why such messages find an audience.

Meanwhile Israel is pounding the German designed vaccine, even though some of the most horrific medical experiments of all time were conducted on them by the Germans.

I'm not downplaying the horrible things done to blacks and other minorities in the US, but those events are most definitely being amplified this year to enriched a few conmen that don't give a shit about the medical outcomes of those groups.

I don't think there's much point in drawing analogies with entirely unrelated issues like Israel and Germany. There's a vast difference in the context and the nature of the 'experiments' in those two cases.

Israel has it's own issues with anti-vaxx


 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Absolutely. There are always different agendas involved in every topic. Just as plenty of "black nationalist" businessmen will emphasise ideas like "black self-sufficiency" because they want to increase their profits when they don't have a good product. But that doesn't change the reasons why such messages find an audience.

Yes, precisely. Anti-vaxxers will tailor their message based on the group they are trying to persuade. If they are targeting people on the left, they are going to say it's a corporate conspiracy to make money for Big Pharma. Nonetheless, that is no excuse for any such groups actually believing them.

I don't think there's much point in drawing analogies with entirely unrelated issues like Israel and Germany. There's a vast difference in the context and the nature of the 'experiments' in those two cases.

Israel has it's own issues with anti-vaxx



The argument for Jews not trusting a German made vaccine is just about as good as blacks not trusting it because of Tuskegee.

Oh, and the ultra-orthodox are freaking nuts. That's why they're ultra-orthodox.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zorba

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,649
26,746
136
No, we are talking about distrust based on ignorance. White anti-vaxxers don't trust the people manufacturing or administering vaccines either. If they are liberals, it's a corporatist conspiracy. If they are conservatives, it's a government conspiracy. If they are black, it's because of an experiment from a long time ago. None of those are good reasons not to trust vaccines. These vaccines are being given to everyone, not just black people. There is no evidence of black people being affected by them any differently than anyone else. And there is no evidence of any particular harm.

I think they should do whatever outreach and education are appropriate, but at the end of the day, I'm not going to have tremendous sympathy for any of the people refusing to be vaccinated.

Holy shit your are dense.

I have not argued in any post that there black people are harmed by vaccines. The point and the ONLY POINT THAT MATTERs we want the MOST PEOPLE POSSIBLE TO GET THE FUCKING VACCINE. You accomplish that by understanding where their reluctance comes from and addressing that head on. Your approach of just dissmissing the harm that community suffered at the hands of the medical community decades ago will not accomplish the goal. So its a moronic attitude to have. Vaccines are effective when the vast majority of the population has them. We have to work to make that happen not just say fuck'em.

And yes antivaxxers are dangerously ignorant, measles is making a comeback. Polio has managed to regain a foot hold in parts of the world. Its maddening beyond all belief.
 
Last edited:

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
When you extract your head from your ass feel free to let us know.

And when you extract the shit from your skull, feel free to let us know.

We can go all day with this nonsense if you like. You clearly have no argument here.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,649
26,746
136
And when you extract the shit from your skull, feel free to let us know.

We can go all day with this nonsense if you like. You clearly have no argument here.
Have you read your posts? For some reason you've turned the opinion of blacks into a pissing contest with me.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Have you read your posts? For some reason you've turned the opinion of blacks into a pissing contest with me.

I have? I was just arguing my points and you were arguing yours, then you started with the pointless insults.

I see you have added to your "Holy shit your are dense" with some arguments.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,649
26,746
136
I have? I was just arguing my points and you were arguing yours, then you started with the pointless insults.

I see you have added to your "Holy shit your are dense" with some arguments.
Yeah those were added about 2 minutes after the original post.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Holy shit your are dense.

I have not argued in any post that there black people are harmed by vaccines. The point and the ONLY POINT THAT MATTERs we want the MOST PEOPLE POSSIBLE TO GET THE FUCKING VACCINE. You accomplish that by understanding where their reluctance comes from and addressing that head on. Your approach of just dissmissing the harm that community suffered at the hands of the medical community decades ago will not accomplish the goal. So its a moronic attitude to have. Vaccines are effective when the vast majority of the population has them. We have to work to make that happen not just say fuck'em.

And yes antivaxxers are dangerously ignorant, measles is making a comeback. Polio has managed to regain a foot hold in parts of the world. Its maddening beyond all belief.

As I said before, I have no issue with any sort of outreach or education efforts which are tailored to various populations. In fact, I think they are a good idea. But I'm probably not the person to be doing it because I personally have little tolerance for people making irrational decisions regarding their own health and the health of others based on paranoia.

A few days back I read an editorial by a psychologist who said the way to get through to people who believe in conspiracy theories is not to try to refute them, but to be sympathetic to their concerns and ask open ended questions. Well if that can work, then hopefully there are people out there willing to try it. As for me, I've just about had up to here with all forms of bunk and nonsense. Our society is exploding with bullshit from every orifice and it only gets worse by the day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zorba

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yes, precisely. Anti-vaxxers will tailor their message based on the group they are trying to persuade. If they are targeting people on the left, they are going to say it's a corporate conspiracy to make money for Big Pharma. Nonetheless, that is no excuse for any such groups actually believing them.



The argument for Jews not trusting a German made vaccine is just about as good as blacks not trusting it because of Tuskegee.

Oh, and the ultra-orthodox are freaking nuts. That's why they're ultra-orthodox.

The Haredi are the Jewish equivalent of Christian Fundie-whacks. They were responsible for a measles outbreak in NY in 2019. They're as stupid about the pandemic as Trumpsters at a rally-

 
  • Like
Reactions: Pohemi