Trump admin crippled vaccination rollout out of paranoia. Actively lobbied congress against funds.

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
23,768
6,774
136
But I was told it’s unfair to hold the previous Administration responsible/accountable for anything more than 4 deaths (1 “Benghazi” if you will.) We just don’t have the resources.

If 1 Benghazi required 10 investigations over 3+ years, how do we investigate 100,000+ Benghazis????
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
33,185
5,083
126
but, but... trump won. :rolleyes: Um, and science is scary (if you don't understand it).

Saw story on CBS national evening news last night where they interviewed nurses at Chicago hospital in area of high risk/incidence (colored population heavy), and majority said they would defer on getting vaccinated because they were concerned the rollout was rushed, they wanted to do wait and see. These people are not educated. Nurses are not necessarily well educated, they are evidently technicians, not expert in what they are doing a great deal of the time.

Edit: BTW, this is often rather true of other medical professionals including M.D.s!!!
 
Last edited:

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
11,654
6,108
136
But I was told it’s unfair to hold the previous Administration responsible/accountable for anything more than 4 deaths (1 “Benghazi” if you will.) We just don’t have the resources.

If 1 Benghazi required 10 investigations over 3+ years, how do we investigate 100,000+ Benghazis????
Way more than that, since Trumpy areas WAY under count death: https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/25/undercounting-covid-19-deaths-greatest-in-pro-trump-areas-analysis-shows/

I've noticed this myself in Oklahoma data. Our excess death charts show at least 2x the amount of excess death than our COVID deaths.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,196
4,939
136
but, but... trump won. :rolleyes: Um, and science is scary (if you don't understand it).

Saw story on CBS national evening news last night where they interviewed nurses at Chicago hospital in area of high risk/incidence (colored population heavy), and majority said they would defer on getting vaccinated because they were concerned the rollout was rushed, they wanted to do wait and see. These people are not educated. Nurses are not necessarily well educated, they are evidently technicians, not expert in what they are doing a great deal of the time.

Edit: BTW, this is often rather true of other medical professionals including M.D.s!!!
A lot of anti-vaxx sentiment among black people (and among Muslims) in the UK, apparently. Those who have a history of being conspired-against not surprisingly have a proclivity for believing conspiracy-theories. Understandable though it is, the results are likely to be bad.

Also I've encountered - both socially and as a patient - plenty of nurses and doctors who were shockingly ignorant.
 

gothuevos

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2010
1,013
699
136
At this rate...what is the point of news like this? It's clear that if trying to overturn an election and inciting an Insurrection aren't enough to sway his voters...why would a botched vaccine rollout that many of them consider a hoax do it?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
30,026
17,002
136
But I was told it’s unfair to hold the previous Administration responsible/accountable for anything more than 4 deaths (1 “Benghazi” if you will.) We just don’t have the resources.

If 1 Benghazi required 10 investigations over 3+ years, how do we investigate 100,000+ Benghazis????
Don't forget the Benghazi that occurred at our own Capitol.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
39,661
16,810
136
And again, what was the fear? The fear was that state governments would instead try and use the funds to avert laying off workers.

They would rather err on the side of mass death than government workers.
The price of being wrong for the populace was high but low for political appointees who are beyond consequences. They don't care if more people die as a result of their being wrong. Arguably if they thought people who don't vote for them would bear the brunt of any such error it would be seen as a political bonus. As I recall Kushner actually stated this in plain terms at one point.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
33,185
5,083
126
At this rate...what is the point of news like this? It's clear that if trying to overturn an election and inciting an Insurrection aren't enough to sway his voters...why would a botched vaccine rollout that many of them consider a hoax do it?
Wrong. Actually, polls before the election revealed that a solid majority of voters (Republican registered as well, IIRC) felt that the T administration had botched the pandemic response considerably. Anything we can do to scrape any of the electorate from their clinging to Trumpism is a good thing for our country going forward. Recent news has revealed that the T admin's vaccine rollout plans and lobbying was pitifully vile and destructive for public health.
 
Last edited:

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
22,194
15,340
136
At this rate...what is the point of news like this? It's clear that if trying to overturn an election and inciting an Insurrection aren't enough to sway his voters...why would a botched vaccine rollout that many of them consider a hoax do it?
Because at the end of the day we do need an accurate accounting of the failure of the Trump administration. This adds to that record.
 
Mar 11, 2004
21,870
4,063
126
At this rate...what is the point of news like this? It's clear that if trying to overturn an election and inciting an Insurrection aren't enough to sway his voters...why would a botched vaccine rollout that many of them consider a hoax do it?
Because he's not the only person that should be held responsible for their actions under his Administration.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,686
10,660
136
A lot of anti-vaxx sentiment among black people (and among Muslims) in the UK, apparently. Those who have a history of being conspired-against not surprisingly have a proclivity for believing conspiracy-theories. Understandable though it is, the results are likely to be bad.

Also I've encountered - both socially and as a patient - plenty of nurses and doctors who were shockingly ignorant.
I've heard that argument before and I don't buy it. Being against vaccination is a product of ignorance. It is no more excusable for blacks or Muslims to be ignorant than it is for anyone else.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
30,493
11,436
136
At this rate...what is the point of news like this? It's clear that if trying to overturn an election and inciting an Insurrection aren't enough to sway his voters...why would a botched vaccine rollout that many of them consider a hoax do it?
Not to ignore your overall point but this wasn’t “botched rollout”. A botched rollout would indicate that the intent was to get the vaccine out, clearly there was no such intent by the trump admin.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
30,493
11,436
136
I've heard that argument before and I don't buy it. Being against vaccination is a product of ignorance. It is no more excusable for blacks or Muslims to be ignorant than it is for anyone else.
You guys mistake being anti vaxxer with people who prefer to have more conclusive proof that these vaccines not only work but whose side effects aren’t worse than the cure. In a medical system where profits are the top priority, I can understand that some people have reservations and don’t trust a situation where the first to come up with a cure gets big money.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
10,196
4,939
136
I've heard that argument before and I don't buy it. Being against vaccination is a product of ignorance. It is no more excusable for blacks or Muslims to be ignorant than it is for anyone else.
Not sure the word "excusable" is relevant. It's simply that the reasons for people being distrusting, and the history behind it is different in cases where a group has in the past been lied to by medical professionals and the state, with bad concequences.
If you want to tackle that distrust, and try to find a solution to it, you need to take into account where it comes from and the history behind it. Otherwise you are blundering in from a position of ignorance, which rarely goes well.

With Muslims it does seem to me that there's a cultural trait that makes belief in conspiracy theories particularly common. They seem to crop up a lot in Muslim communities - a classic one being "Diana was pregnant by Dodi and the establishment murdered her because they didn't want a Muslim heir to the throne". I think part of the reason why that trait exists is simply because many Muslims come from countries where the governments habitually lie their arses off to the public, where you know you can't believe a word they say, and which have also been conspired against by Western countries imposing regime-change on them. But just maybe there's something deeper or less obvious than that behind it, something to do with Muslim culture itself?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
11,654
6,108
136
i'd say systemic racism is a legit excuse.
The Jews have been horribly experimented in the past, yet Israel has the highest vaccination rate in the world.

What we have is a bunch of conmen selling bullshit to people that will end up hurting those people. And then that gets justified because of something that happened decades ago.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
11,654
6,108
136
You guys mistake being anti vaxxer with people who prefer to have more conclusive proof that these vaccines not only work but whose side effects aren’t worse than the cure. In a medical system where profits are the top priority, I can understand that some people have reservations and don’t trust a situation where the first to come up with a cure gets big money.
25M people in the US have gotten at least one shot. If it was worse than the disease there would be 500,000 dead people and a couple million in the hospital.

Floating the whole "I want to wait and see what the long term effects are" is an antivax position and statement. It is based on the bogus idea that vaccines cause side effects years down the road, yet there is no real evidence of that occuring in the billions upon billions of vaccinations done in the last 50 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
10,688
3,785
136
I've heard that argument before and I don't buy it. Being against vaccination is a product of ignorance. It is no more excusable for blacks or Muslims to be ignorant than it is for anyone else.

I'm going to ask you to do some research on the subject you speak about....that you seem to have little actual facts to support your assertions.

Tuskegee Experiment
https://www.history.com/news/the-infamous-40-year-tuskegee-study

J. Marion Sims, the "father of gynecology," who had a statue in Central Park until 2018...

Henrietta Lacks...



Maybe with some of that reading you might understand why persons of color might not really want/trust the govt. and vaccinations.

This doesn't mention the early 2010's CIA program of offering free (fake) Hepatitis B vaccinations for children in Pakistan, all the while just using that to hide their trying to obtain DNA evidence of bin Laden's whereabouts. Probably was a useless program, but it surely pissed off a bunch of people of color when the story broke.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,671
136
You guys mistake being anti vaxxer with people who prefer to have more conclusive proof that these vaccines not only work but whose side effects aren’t worse than the cure. In a medical system where profits are the top priority, I can understand that some people have reservations and don’t trust a situation where the first to come up with a cure gets big money.
Initial trepidation really should be gone by now. 30M Americans have already been vaccinated, so it's obviously safe.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
10,688
3,785
136
The Jews have been horribly experimented in the past, yet Israel has the highest vaccination rate in the world.

What we have is a bunch of conmen selling bullshit to people that will end up hurting those people. And then that gets justified because of something that happened decades ago.
The treatment of persons of color vs. whites in hospital settings, incl. same hospital/Tx/etc., is vastly worse. They're not believed when they complain of the same crap as a white person...whether it be pain, effectiveness of a drug, treatment, whatever...and their outcomes are worse, even starting from the same point. Systemic racism extends deep and wide in this country.

I'm not feeling good today, but there are studies galore that demonstrate this if you'll bother to search.
 
Mar 11, 2004
21,870
4,063
126
You guys mistake being anti vaxxer with people who prefer to have more conclusive proof that these vaccines not only work but whose side effects aren’t worse than the cure. In a medical system where profits are the top priority, I can understand that some people have reservations and don’t trust a situation where the first to come up with a cure gets big money.
In my experience there's a lot of people that claim that's all they're doing but are in fact anti-vaxxers. Literally every single year my family spouts nonsense about vaccines, but the moment I point out how the shit they're saying is literally the same shit anti-vaxxers do they get super defensive and claim they aren't at all, then double down spouting bullshit while I again point out how that's the same bullshit that anti-vaxxers spout. They STFU when I point out how that type of stupidity put our other family members that had serious health conditions at risk.
 
  • Like
Reactions: skyking and Zorba

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,187
756
126
I'm going to ask you to do some research on the subject you speak about....that you seem to have little actual facts to support your assertions.
Except the problem is that all the past atrocities and doctors poor treatment of women and minorities don't apply to this. Everyone just gets two doses of the vaccine, and the only difference might be that you get Moderna or Pfizer. What you're trying to suggest is hesitancy created out of irrational fear.

You guys mistake being anti vaxxer with people who prefer to have more conclusive proof that these vaccines not only work but whose side effects aren’t worse than the cure. In a medical system where profits are the top priority, I can understand that some people have reservations and don’t trust a situation where the first to come up with a cure gets big money.
That sounds like just another person fishing for an excuse to back up their existing vaccine hesitancy. People that will spout things like "this came to market too fast!" are really just showing their ignorance and unwillingness to look into something beyond a random Facebook meme. The whole reason why this vaccine came out so quickly was the mRNA method that focused on the spike protein (that the virus uses) instead of the virus itself. Also, manufacturing a successful vaccine doesn't truly require you to be first out the gate. Given that we have to inoculate billions of people and be able to manufacture enough vaccines for them (especially given the double dose required), even someone coming in a month or two late will likely get a good chunk of the pie.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo and Zorba

Pohemi420

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
4,933
2,377
146
These people are not educated. Nurses are not necessarily well educated, they are evidently technicians, not expert in what they are doing a great deal of the time.

Edit: BTW, this is often rather true of other medical professionals including M.D.s!!!
I've encountered many healthcare professionals throughout my lifetime and I learned at an early age that medical degrees and booksmarts do not equal common sense or rationality.
It's scary when the people you depend on to keep you alive are relative space-cases or need to have obvious things pointed out to them. It's unreal sometimes.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY