Trump’s decision to politicize COVID now killing White America

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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
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Many people are total idiots so of course masks "don't work very well" herp-derp. When your "mask" is a doubled-over sheet of cotton that doesn't even cover your nose and you only wear it "sometimes" this is to be expected.

Even when people were wearing proper N95 masks that tightly fit their faces they would still have them hanging off their dang chins or not covering their noses.


This is the last time I personally will reply to this kind of post... there's no need for a "CDC study" to see if properly worn N95 masks protect against Covid infection, rather this is what's commonly referred to as "established scientific fact".

But think whatever you want IDC.

Just because you claim something is a established scientific fact doesn't make it so. You are substituting arrogance for knowledge.
For example it would have been good to done a comparison in community masking between surgical masks, KN-94 masks and N95 masks so we understood what the effect of wearing these different types of masks had on community spread of COVID. Should the CDC have been recommending at a minimum surgical masks? These are exactly the types of studies the CDC should have been doing.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,275
10,783
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Just because you claim something is a established scientific fact doesn't make it so. You are substituting arrogance for knowledge.
For example it would have been good to done a comparison in community masking between surgical masks, KN-94 masks and N95 masks so we understood what the effect of wearing these different types of masks had on community spread of COVID. Should the CDC have been recommending at a minimum surgical masks? These are exactly the types of studies the CDC should have been doing.


No... I'm stating that as far as I'm concerned the issue is settled based on results from REAL hospitals and REAL medical professionals.

I will concede that I would be interested in seeing the exact stats for type of masks vs Covid spread however unless it was done in a controlled environment where proper mask wearing was enforced the numbers would be suspect at best. (and also then it wouldn't represent the way folks REALLY wear masks!)

Go find somebody else to debate with. ;)
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
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No... I'm stating that as far as I'm concerned the issue is settled.

Go find somebody else to debate with. ;)

I am stating that as far as I'm concerned the issue isn't settled because you need actual studies proving that a N95 masks(or other's) actually work in a "community setting" to slow the spread of COVID. Public Health policy should be based on good data not intuition. The CDC failed in it's duty and has left us without good scientific data for future pandemics.

If you don't want to debate, then stop responding. :cool:
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,275
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I am stating that as far as I'm concerned the issue isn't settled because you need actual studies proving that a N95 masks(or other's) actually work in a "community setting" to slow the spread of COVID. Public Health policy should be based on good data not intuition. The CDC failed in it's duty and has left us without good scientific data for future pandemics.

If you don't want to debate, then stop responding. :cool:

I'm up for debating lots of things ... N-95 and comparable masks properly worn being effective in preventing spread of most airborne viral infection isn't one of them.

The CDC study you suggest above would be more a of a human behavior study and would tell us very little about masks themselves but a lot about how well/poorly folks wear masks. (also about the kind of masks they wore)

Thing is I can tell you that at least half of people I saw with my own eyes during peak-pandemic wore ineffective masks and/or masks that didn't fit correctly and if masks didn't work that's the explanation.
 
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abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
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Interesting article about Long COVID. The part about 2/3 of those who identified as COVID long-haulers had negative Coronavirus antibody tests. I know those test are not prefect but 2/3 is a high number.

We need to start thinking more critically — and speaking more cautiously — about long Covid

Almost everyone who dies of Covid-19 develops a condition called acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), a form of pneumonia involving severe inflammation of both lungs. Many studies have shown that for some individuals, ARDS can have myriad long-term effects, including physical and cognitive impairments, reduced lung function, mental health problems, and poorer quality of life. A 1999 study found that even patients with less-severe forms of pneumonia can have symptoms that linger for months.

In addition, lung failure can precipitate the failure of other organs, like the kidneys and the heart, and can sometimes require specialized rehabilitation and care for months, or even years. SARS-CoV-2 infection can also (though rarely) inflict permanent damage on other organs, including severe myocarditis (an inflammation of the heart muscle leading to heart failure) and stroke, in the absence of significant lung disease.

Still, even if these ailments are sometimes acknowledged in media reports of long Covid, most narratives evoke something entirely different: a debilitating syndrome seemingly affecting multiple organ systems for months on end — and perhaps indefinitely — but without any specific diagnosis such as myocarditis or stroke. It is also notable that reports often suggest that even those with only mild acute symptoms — or no acute symptoms at all — are at risk.

First, consider that at least some people who identify themselves as having long Covid appear never to have been infected with the SARS-CoV-2 virus. In Yong’s influential article, he cites a survey of Covid long-haulers in which some two-thirds of them had negative coronavirus antibody tests — blood tests that reveal prior SARS-CoV-2 infection. Meanwhile, a survey organized by a group of self-identified long Covid patients that recruited participants from online support groups reported in late December 2020 that around two-thirds of those surveyed who had undergone blood testing reported negative results.
There's much more to the story than what is inferred from that statement, and I think you're making the wrong conclusion about post-COVID-19 Condition aka Long COVID. The first important point is that Yong wrote that article back in August 2020. Back then, some of the antibody tests that were available were relatively poor in quality (some the FDA actually recommended discontinuing their usage), and some ended up being discarded for low sensitivity and specificity. You can find the testing dynamics here, and you'll see there's quite a range in performances.

Nonetheless, given the age of that initial report, there's been important studies that have been published that helps explain the phenomenon:

1) Patients with PCR confirmed COVID-19 lose seropositivity over time and depends on severity of disease. In one study of patients with , by the six month mark, 28.7% tested negative for antibodies. It has been a continued discussion going back to the end of 2020 of how long natural infection provides protection because antibody titers clearly wane.
2) Some of these cohorts of "negative" antibodies are biased by certain patient populations. In the study described by Yong, the majority of patients were women who had antibody testing on average 98 days after onset of symptoms, and these were self-reports of antibody results using tests from 2020. Not only do some antibody tests suck, while others wane, but women are more likely to test negative for antibody response to SARS-CoV-2.
3) Having antibodies vs no detectable antibodies increases the risk of having post-COVID-19 shown here and here. However, in both studies, there were patients with post-COVID-19 symptoms and negative antibodies, despite having PCR confirmed disease up front.
4) However, those who develop more severe post-COVID-19 symptoms have a weaker antibody response than those who have more mild symptoms shown here and here, suggesting the type and strength of immune response matters.

So there's much more to the story and the "2/3rds" number needs to be placed in proper context. Those patients he was citing didn't have serial antibody measurements (many antibody tests weren't even wide-spread until the summer 2020, and as mentioned, some sucked), so the kinetics of those patients he was describing is unknown. It is also hard to know if they seroconverted to undetectable levels. The newer research assays (as cited above) have a far higher sensitivity and gives a better viewpoint.

It is clear that long COVID-19 exists and occurs in many people. The exact percentage varies by study (in one review 4.7 to 80%), but people shouldn't be so callous to act like it doesn't exist just because the media tends to sensationalize it.
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,341
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I'm up for debating lots of things ... N-95 and comparable masks properly worn being effective in preventing spread of most airborne viral infection isn't one of them.

The CDC study you suggest above would be more a of a human behavior study and would tell us very little about masks themselves but a lot about how well/poorly folks wear masks. (also about the kind of masks they wore)

Thing is I can tell you that at least half of people I saw with my own eyes during peak-pandemic wore ineffective masks and/or masks that didn't fit correctly and if masks didn't work that's the explanation.

Which is why the CDC should have studied community masking to determine if such policies actually slow the spread of a respiratory virus. It really makes no difference how effective a N95 mask is if in practice people are not going to wear them properly. Maybe a KN-94 is actually more effective in a community setting because they are easier to work with than N95's? I usually wear those when a place requires masks. They should have been studying a lot of different non pharmacological for slowing the spread of COVID. That is what makes for good public health policy by studying what works in a community setting and then educating people to implement those policies.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,539
7,676
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Which is why the CDC should have studied community masking to determine if such policies actually slow the spread of a respiratory virus. It really makes no difference how effective a N95 mask is if in practice people are not going to wear them properly. Maybe a KN-94 is actually more effective in a community setting because they are easier to work with than N95's? I usually wear those when a place requires masks. They should have been studying a lot of different non pharmacological for slowing the spread of COVID. That is what makes for good public health policy by studying what works in a community setting and then educating people to implement those policies.
We don't have enough money to do that, we gotta give our boy Musk more tax breaks so he can go to Mars.