Trigger-happy US troops 'will keep us in Iraq for years'

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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The tactics employed in Iraq by the American military, all the way from checkpoints to creating war zones in civilian population centers like Fallujah, Najaf, or Baghdad, is a self-defeating strategy that only feeds the resistance. It is quite obviously not working.

If anyone refuses to take my word for it then take the word of those with vastly more experience in similar situations. Our allies in Iraq. The UK military are saying...

Trigger-happy US troops 'will keep us in Iraq for years'

By Sean Rayment
(Filed: 15/05/2005)

British defence chiefs have warned United States military commanders in Iraq to change their rules for opening fire or face becoming bogged down in a terrorist war for a decade or more.

The Telegraph has learnt that the warning was issued last month in response to a series of incidents that led to the deaths of Iraqi civilians, mainly at checkpoints, after soldiers opened fire in the mistaken belief that they were being attacked by suicide bombers.

The warning is said to have taken the form of advice from senior officers who accompanied Gen Sir Mike Jackson, the chief of the General Staff, on a recent trip to southern Iraq and Baghdad to visit British troops.

A conversation took place between officers on the differences between British and American rules of engagement, during which British commanders expressed their concerns over the use of US tactics.

They attempted to explain that in their experience of post-war counter-insurgency operations it paid to adopt a low-key and less aggressive stance.

Iraq factfile

American officers were told that when the British Army had made mistakes, such as in Londonderry in Northern Ireland in 1972 when troops shot dead 13 civilians during a civil rights march, the political and military consequences had been disastrous.

In the past month alone in Iraq there have been more than 130 car bombings and 67 suicide attacks that have killed more than 400 people. The attacks have led to renewed fears among coalition officials that American and Iraqi forces are losing the fight against the insurgency.

According to senior British officers, US military operations are typified by "force protection" - the protection of troops at all costs - that allows American troops to open fire, using whatever means available, if they believe that their lives are under threat.

By contrast, the British military has a graduated response to a threat and its rules of engagement are based on the principle of minimum force. Troops also have to justify their actions in post-operation reports that are reviewed by the Royal Military Police, and any discrepancy can lead to charges including murder.

A British officer said that some of the tactics employed by American forces would not be approved by British commanders.


The officer said: "US troops have the attitude of shoot first and ask questions later. They simply won't take any risk."

"It has been explained to US commanders that we made mistakes in Northern Ireland, namely Bloody Sunday, and paid the price.

"I explained that their tactics were alienating the civil population and could lengthen the insurgency by a decade. Unfortunately, when we ex-plained our rules of engagement which are based around the principle of minimum force, the US troops just laughed."
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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Weren't the British complaining of American tactics back about, oh, 18 months ago or so?
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
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And the British are out patrolling the peaceful areas while Americans have all the dangerous areas. Of course their tactics work in relatively peaceful areas. They don't work when there are suicide bombings daily in your areas.
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: ntdz
And the British are out patrolling the peaceful areas while Americans have all the dangerous areas. Of course their tactics work in relatively peaceful areas. They don't work when there are suicide bombings daily in your areas.

Have you ever considered that the Brits are patrolling peaceful areas because of their tactics?
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: conjur
Weren't the British complaining of American tactics back about, oh, 18 months ago or so?

Yeah, Conjur. And the only thing that's changed in those 18 months is that it's all gotten worse. :thumbsdown:
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ntdz
And the British are out patrolling the peaceful areas while Americans have all the dangerous areas. Of course their tactics work in relatively peaceful areas. They don't work when there are suicide bombings daily in your areas.

Have you ever considered that the Brits are patrolling peaceful areas because of their tactics?

Their tactics cannot handle a more volatile area? Makes sense I guess.
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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Maybe if the Iraq's didn't bomb their own people we wouldn't have to shoot them. It's tough love.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: ntdz
And the British are out patrolling the peaceful areas while Americans have all the dangerous areas. Of course their tactics work in relatively peaceful areas. They don't work when there are suicide bombings daily in your areas.

Now that's just stupid. You cannot deny even the slightest possiblilty of action/reaction. The dictatoric order ruling the country ofcourse has something to do with people disliking americans.

Besides it's very clear that the american army has a minimum of tolerance regarding loss of own troops. It's a very clear shoot first and ask later. That's the whole way you use your army. Tanks are used for blasting buildings apart when there might be a sniper in there, because you don't want to risk soldiers. That's basically what's wrong with the way you wage war. Except for the fact that the war is unjustified.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: Amplifier
Maybe if the Iraq's didn't bomb their own people we wouldn't have to shoot them. It's tough love.

It's not like you just shoot them dude. How about all the innocents?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't trust it coming from British officers. Their God-Queen can command them to say anything.

I do find it odd that it's coming from the British though. These are the people that celebrate genocide.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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I love the way neocons (and others) are so quick to turn on the US's best ally (according to national polls) if they criticize the US!!!

The neocon attitude is so simpe: serve us blindly or else you are evil. It really applies to everything.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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I like how some people see criticism or simple observations as stabbing another country in the back.

Neocons, loony liberals, they're all the same. It's pretty scary to think that there are so many of each in the US.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I like how some people see criticism or simple observations as stabbing another country in the back.

Neocons, loony liberals, they're all the same. It's pretty scary to think that there are so many of each in the US.

The "loony liberals" of whom you spead aren't the people who put our troops in this untenable position. If I was a soldier in Iraq my first duty would be to get myself home alive. But none of them would be in this position in the first place if a group of neocon madmen led by a fool hadn't started this illegal, immorat, unnecessary, unprovoked war in the first place.

 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
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No one is turning on England. Some British soldiers said we shouldn't fire on targets so quickly. We will tell them why we need to be aggressive. No big deal.

 
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I like how some people see criticism or simple observations as stabbing another country in the back.

Neocons, loony liberals, they're all the same. It's pretty scary to think that there are so many of each in the US.

The "loony liberals" of whom you spead aren't the people who put our troops in this untenable position. If I was a soldier in Iraq my first duty would be to get myself home alive. But none of them would be in this position in the first place if a group of neocon madmen led by a fool hadn't started this illegal, immorat, unnecessary, unprovoked war in the first place.

Sure, but they might do something equally as ridiculous.

All extremists in my mind - neocons and loony liberals are the biggest threat to this country.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: CanOWorms
It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't trust it coming from British officers. Their God-Queen can command them to say anything.

I do find it odd that it's coming from the British though. These are the people that celebrate genocide.

Anyone actually listen to this guy?
I hope not.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I like how some people see criticism or simple observations as stabbing another country in the back.

Neocons, loony liberals, they're all the same. It's pretty scary to think that there are so many of each in the US.

The "loony liberals" of whom you spead aren't the people who put our troops in this untenable position. If I was a soldier in Iraq my first duty would be to get myself home alive. But none of them would be in this position in the first place if a group of neocon madmen led by a fool hadn't started this illegal, immorat, unnecessary, unprovoked war in the first place.

Sure, but they might do something equally as ridiculous.

All extremists in my mind - neocons and loony liberals are the biggest threat to this country.

The "loony liberal" is a reaction caused by neocons. Remove the neocons and they're gone. So i do not agree.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: BBond
The tactics employed **************** is a self-defeating strategy that only feeds the resistance.
Well I guess I can't argue with someone who has experience with this tactic.


Do you have an official link to "the rules of engagement" that our troops must follow in Iraq?
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I like how some people see criticism or simple observations as stabbing another country in the back.

Neocons, loony liberals, they're all the same. It's pretty scary to think that there are so many of each in the US.

The "loony liberals" of whom you spead aren't the people who put our troops in this untenable position. If I was a soldier in Iraq my first duty would be to get myself home alive. But none of them would be in this position in the first place if a group of neocon madmen led by a fool hadn't started this illegal, immorat, unnecessary, unprovoked war in the first place.

Sure, but they might do something equally as ridiculous.

All extremists in my mind - neocons and loony liberals are the biggest threat to this country.

The "loony liberal" is a reaction caused by neocons. Remove the neocons and they're gone. So i do not agree.

That does not make a 'loony liberal' justify his or her existence or positions.

By the same token, remove the crazy liberals then the neocons will go away.

I'd just be happy if they all went away.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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That does not make a 'loony liberal' justify his or her existence or positions.

By the same token, remove the crazy liberals then the neocons will go away.

I'd just be happy if they all went away.

I understand what you think, but i disagree.

The liberals you complain about are the ones complaining about Bush. They are a result of Bush, not the other way around. However, they did cause some reaction amongst the media and population, but that reaction is not the root of the problem.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Forsythe
That does not make a 'loony liberal' justify his or her existence or positions.

By the same token, remove the crazy liberals then the neocons will go away.

I'd just be happy if they all went away.

I understand what you think, but i disagree.

The liberals you complain about are the ones complaining about Bush. They are a result of Bush, not the other way around. However, they did cause some reaction amongst the media and population, but that reaction is not the root of the problem.

In the end they are both destructive and should be gone. And they've probably been around before Bush. Perhaps the neocons now are spawned from Clinton's eight years in office. That doesn't justify it in any way. They are all extremists.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
By the same token, remove the crazy liberals then the neocons will go away.

No. Even if you just had conservatives, neocons would exist to call for agressive unilateral action. There would still be traditional conservatives with a more conventional foreign policy.

I'd just be happy if they all went away.
Wouldn't that require you to leave too? Seems like most of your posts are consistent with the neocon philsophy (look it up on wikipedia if you need to).
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
By the same token, remove the crazy liberals then the neocons will go away.

No. Even if you just had conservatives, neocons would exist to call for agressive unilateral action. There would still be traditional conservatives with a more conventional foreign policy.

I'd just be happy if they all went away.
Wouldn't that require you to leave too? Seems like most of your posts are consistent with the neocon philsophy (look it up on wikipedia if you need to).

No, you probably have more in common with a neocon than I do. Your extremity makes you more in common with other extremists, despite the difference in your political ideologies.

Tell me which posts of mine coincide with neocon attitudes. You certainly know what I could bring up which would align you with neocon political propaganda.