Treasury releases data (quietly) that it will need to borrow 1 Trillion next 3 years

[Jhhnn]

Most Americans seem to like having their stuff and worry about paying for it later, witness over $1 trillion in consumer credit card debt as proof. It's hardly a surprise that our government would be a reflection of this propensity. Too bad we can't all just grow up.

I always wonder how that number is derived. I use credit cards like debit cards because it provides an extra layer of protection to my accounts. I pay the balance every month because I already have the money in the first place. I pay nothing for the service & get cash back. If you average my daily account balance it looks like I owe money when in reality I don't.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like me.

 

[crashtech]

I always wonder how that number is derived. I use credit cards like debit cards because it provides an extra layer of protection to my accounts. I pay the balance every month because I already have the money in the first place. I pay nothing for the service & get cash back. If you average my daily account balance it looks like I owe money when in reality I don't.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like me.

I do that, too, and have no idea how they come up with that figure. It seems likely that some of our daily balances would get caught up in that calculation, but it also seems likely that even if those balances were accounted for, the number would still be staggeringly large.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Many people are not responsible like that. Compound interest is a beeyotch.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Many people are not responsible like that. Compound interest is a beeyotch.

Its the folks who carry a balance that are paying for those who pay in full each month. I use a CC to earn rewards and why not since I was going to spend that money anyway. If I pay cash it does nothing for my credit score but if I charge it and pay the bill in full my score reflects if plus I earn cash back.

 

[Jhhnn]

I do that, too, and have no idea how they come up with that figure. It seems likely that some of our daily balances would get caught up in that calculation, but it also seems likely that even if those balances were accounted for, the number would still be staggeringly large.

I don't think it matters nearly as much as the ultimate effect on the Treasury & Govt ability to provide for the people in ways that private enterprise simply will not. We end up with a govt that can barely service the debt, let alone provide things that Americans need.

 

[Engineer]

Is this real? Again, anybody who voted for these guys and then complains about the deficit needs to have their GD ass kicked up to their chins. If there's a hint of cutting SS / Medicare after this, somebody(s) should be shot. What a fucking bunch of hypocrites.

did someone say fiscal stimulus?

 

[Jhhnn]

Many people are not responsible like that. Compound interest is a beeyotch.

Lots of people never really make enough money to get ahead of the game more than just a little bit. About the time they do something goes to hell like it did for a lot of people in the S&L fiasco, the tech bust & the great recession. Patooie. Broke again.

They're the people who need a break, not the mega rich. The insane greed at the top is what's created these tax cuts & it's wrong for the GOP to pander to it. It's wrong for their voters to accept it, too, but they're too caught up in the web of lies to do otherwise.

 

[crashtech]

I don't think it matters nearly as much as the ultimate effect on the Treasury & Govt ability to provide for the people in ways that private enterprise simply will not. We end up with a govt that can barely service the debt, let alone provide things that Americans need.

Well, for the purpose of mentioning CC debt here it's significant, not mainly in dollars, but that it is emblematic of what has become the American Way.

I'm not an idealist. If the choice is between a government that is trying to do more than it realistically can given its funding, and a government that does everything it can within its means, I'll take the latter. I know you and many others here envision an even greater role for government, but if the funding isn't provided, it shouldn't happen. Eventually, faith in the US's ability to repay will evaporate, and the fall will be long and hard.

I'm actually sorry that the Dems couldn't block this latest tax cut. Taxes need to go up a smidge, and spending needs to be cut also.

 

[Jhhnn]

Well, for the purpose of mentioning CC debt here it's significant, not mainly in dollars, but that it is emblematic of what has become the American Way.

I'm not an idealist. If the choice is between a government that is trying to do more than it realistically can given its funding, and a government that does everything it can within its means, I'll take the latter. I know you and many others here envision an even greater role for government, but if the funding isn't provided, it shouldn't happen. Eventually, faith in the US's ability to repay will evaporate, and the fall will be long and hard.

I'm actually sorry that the Dems couldn't block this latest tax cut. Taxes need to go up a smidge, and spending needs to be cut also.

Raising taxes strongly at the tippy top is simply economic self defense for the rest of us. Otherwise, they'll keep hogging a bigger piece of the pie & gaining power every chance they get.

Did you notice the uber wealthy suffering in any way before this raid on the Treasury? Hardly. Life at the top has never been better. Is there any shortage of investment funding in this age of stock buybacks? Hardly. Business has been great during the recovery.

These tax cuts are a looting spree in the top down class warfare the GOP has waged against the rest of us since Reagan.

 

[Bitek]

Is this real? Again, anybody who voted for these guys and then complains about the deficit needs to have their GD ass kicked up to their chins. If there's a hint of cutting SS / Medicare after this, somebody(s) should be shot. What a fucking bunch of hypocrites.

Polish up those boots. Ryan's just trying to figure out the bullshit spin to sell it to the dumb Trumpos.

Just last week, Feb 2:

"Senate Republicans last December panned Speaker Paul Ryan’s pitch to overhaul entitlements. But the Wisconsin Republican is back at it again, repackaging his proposals in hopes of gaining traction on welfare reform.

During a GOP retreat here in Appalachia, Ryan urged congressional Republicans to tackle “workforce development.” He messaged the somewhat amorphous phrase as a matter of “helping people”— not a budget-cutting excursive.
Ryan clearly isn’t giving up. And any discouraging words appear to go in Ryan’s right ear and out his left.
...
During a Wednesday night retreat session, for example, Ryan was in full salesman mode. He told lawmakers they need to prioritize “getting people the skills and opportunity to get into the workforce,” according to a person in the room. And he insisted the idea is popular.

He emphasized the “jobs” piece of the equation, pointing out that there are 6.6 million people on unemployment and more than 5.8 million open jobs. That skills gap, he said, could be filled by the unemployed population if the government provided the facilities to link the two.

“We need to focus on closing the skills gap,” he said, reading from a month-old Washington Post headline that said: “2018’s challenges: too many jobs, not enough workers.” “Our goal should be helping those people close that skills gap. This improves people’s lives, and it helps our economy in general.”

GOP cheerleaders of the idea appears to recognize the sensitivity of the issue. Walker, for instance, pointed out that 63 percent of people using such federal benefits are white, perhaps in a bid to pre-empt accusations that tackling the safety net would be a racially tinged exercise."


Or perhaps he was just noting it's not brown people, and just regular poors, so not as fun punching bag.

 

[crashtech]

Raising taxes strongly at the tippy top is simply economic self defense for the rest of us. Otherwise, they'll keep hogging a bigger piece of the pie & gaining power every chance they get.

Did you notice the uber wealthy suffering in any way before this raid on the Treasury? Hardly. Life at the top has never been better. Is there any shortage of investment funding in this age of stock buybacks? Hardly. Business has been great during the recovery.

These tax cuts are a looting spree in the top down class warfare the GOP has waged against the rest of us since Reagan.

A more ambivalent view of the rich seems to prevail with many Americans. It's not because they've been hoodwinked, either. It's because part of the traditional lure and promise of America is upward mobility. While I'll tentatively agree that avarice may be rampant among the super rich, the mistake of targeting them all is the same mistake that gets made every time one group or another gets targeted for punitive measures. The fact is that groups are made up of individuals, and income level alone is not an indicator of good or evil.

I think what you really want is some kind of societal shift that can't be forced by an ever more punitive tax code. A world where the alphas gain more prestige not by what they accumulate, but what they give away.

 

[Genx87]

When will people learn. The GOP does this every single time they get into power. The republican party is the party of fiscal conservation just like the dem are the party of Christianity.

I think a more appropriate analogy is the GOP is the party of fiscal conservation just like the dems are the party of anti-war.

 

[woolfe9998]

I think a more appropriate analogy is the GOP is the party of fiscal conservation just like the dems are the party of anti-war.

The dems certainly have not been an anti-war party. Not ever really. Are the dems really billed as an anti-war party though? Sure, many liberals are quite anti-war. I'm just not so sure the democratic party markets itself that way. They may oppose the Iraq War because an unpopular republican POTUS got us into it, but I don't think being anti-war is a major selling point for the party. At least not in that way being "fiscally conservative" has been a selling point for the GOP. It's kind of been a marquis stance of there's for at least as long as I've been alive.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I think a more appropriate analogy is the GOP is the party of fiscal conservation just like the dems are the party of anti-war.

Sorry, but not even close. This is more like the GOP is that fucking moron that lost his mind over a spider and burned his fucking house down. Compared to Democrats with war going, well I'd rather not kill the spider, but there are people who will be in danger letting it run wild, plus Republicans swear this is a two step spider (two steps is all you get before you fall down dead), oh and it has nukes/WMDs, and its like super evil!!!! There are very few apt analogies that are even remotely reasonable for how batshit insane Republicans are these days.

The dems certainly have not been an anti-war party. Not ever really. Are the dems really billed as an anti-war party though? Sure, many liberals are quite anti-war. I'm just not so sure the democratic party markets itself that way. They may oppose the Iraq War because an unpopular republican POTUS got us into it, but I don't think being anti-war is a major selling point for the party. At least not in that way being "fiscally conservative" has been a selling point for the GOP. It's kind of been a marquis stance of there's for at least as long as I've been alive.

The Democrats are hawkish but they're not actual warmongers for the most part. Yes very liberal people are generally anti-war, but actual Democrat politicians have been quite centrist. They're not keen on going to war, but will when necessary, or you know, when lied to by Republicans making shit up so they can get their war.

 

[K1052]

Word is emerging of a deal in the Senate on spending/caps for the next two years plus a shitload of other stuff (disaster relief, opioid crisis money, CHIP extension out 10 years, etc). Whole package over two years includes huge defense boost as well. Major deficit bursting cost expected in the several hundred billion range.

 

[woolfe9998]

Word is emerging of a deal in the Senate on spending/caps for the next two years plus a shitload of other stuff (disaster relief, opioid crisis money, CHIP extension out 10 years, etc). Whole package over two years includes huge defense boost as well. Major deficit bursting cost expected in the several hundred billion range.

Yup, was going to post that.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/07/politics/senate-announces-deal-budget-caps-agreement/index.html

Includes spending boost of $300b over the next 2 years. After the big tax cut.

Like I said...

 

[K1052]

Yup, was going to post that.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/07/politics/senate-announces-deal-budget-caps-agreement/index.html

Includes spending boost of $300b over the next 2 years. After the big tax cut.

Like I said...

And raises the debt ceiling for a year!

 

[Jaskalas]

Cut taxes, increase spending, cut the safety net. Republicans are like clockwork. This is how Capitalism dies, by robber barons. In order to protect our country, our people, and our way of life - we must realign both taxes and spending to support a full fledged safety net.

 

[K1052]

Cut taxes, increase spending, cut the safety net. Republicans are like clockwork. This is how Capitalism dies, by robber barons. In order to protect our country, our people, and our way of life - we must realign both taxes and spending to support a full fledged safety net.

The country isn't ready for this and it will take something on the scale of the Great Depression to make it happen.

 

[Jhhnn]

A more ambivalent view of the rich seems to prevail with many Americans. It's not because they've been hoodwinked, either. It's because part of the traditional lure and promise of America is upward mobility. While I'll tentatively agree that avarice may be rampant among the super rich, the mistake of targeting them all is the same mistake that gets made every time one group or another gets targeted for punitive measures. The fact is that groups are made up of individuals, and income level alone is not an indicator of good or evil.

I think what you really want is some kind of societal shift that can't be forced by an ever more punitive tax code. A world where the alphas gain more prestige not by what they accumulate, but what they give away.

Of course they're hoodwinked. Since 1980, a huge chunk of national income has shifted from the lower 75% to the top 1% with much of that going to the top .1%. Mere fact. Adulation of the Rich doesn't mean letting them rob us blind. It's different over in Republican land, apparently.

There are two different stories about upward mobility. One is about getting astoundingly rich. The other is about people who started with nothing & built good lives for themselves & their families, who gained security against life's vicissitudes, lived decently in old age & had something to leave behind for the kids. That's really the upward mobility Americans want. The rich taking a larger & larger share of national income & wealth is incompatible with that.

Don't give me the punitive tax code bullshit, OK? Not when the people wringing tax cuts out of the GOP won't live any better with them than without.

 

[Puffnstuff]

People like Trump don't actually care about anyone but themselves but will say exactly what you expect to hear if you will worship them for it.

 

[crashtech]

...There are two different stories about upward mobility. One is about getting astoundingly rich. The other is about people who started with nothing & built good lives for themselves & their families, who gained security against life's vicissitudes, lived decently in old age & had something to leave behind for the kids. That's really the upward mobility Americans want...

Pardon my truncation of your post, but permit me to highlight the excerpt as a seed of agreement between us. It's about the best I can do at this point. I, like you, am worried about the extreme concentration of wealth that is occurring, but you seem far more sure of the remedy than I am. Perhaps my principles regarding the presumption of innocence are old-fashioned, or arbitrarily considered misplaced when discussing unfavored groups.

 

[Jhhnn]

Pardon my truncation of your post, but permit me to highlight the excerpt as a seed of agreement between us. It's about the best I can do at this point. I, like you, am worried about the extreme concentration of wealth that is occurring, but you seem far more sure of the remedy than I am. Perhaps my principles regarding the presumption of innocence are old-fashioned, or arbitrarily considered misplaced when discussing unfavored groups.

I think that the people who beat these tax cuts out of the GOP are raiding the Treasury to satisfy almost unimaginable greed. I mean, WTF do the mega rich need a tax cut for, anyway, other than to bend society more to their ruthless purposes?