Travelling between solar systems...

[TuxDave]

What are the possible solutions (science fiction included) out there? I heard the theory of wormholes being tossed around but has anyone actually seen one?

Are there any alternatives to jet fuel as an energy source for propulsion? Something along the lines of a jet engine that spews out ions to get it moving?

Or are we truly just stuck in this one place....

 

[Mik3y]

using jet fuel requires air for it to burn, so that's :thumbsdown:. the space shuttle has two liquids that spew out and when the liquids touch each other, they ignite and cause propulsion. until we can find a better fuel efficient way to travel that distance, i dont think it will happen anytime soon. i think we will need fission/fusion first.

 

[PsharkJF]

From what I've read - [theoretical] Ion engines are great for travelling long distances in space, but are not nearly powerful enough to launch from a planet.

 

[Wahsapa]

solar sails, or warp drives or something

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
solar sails, or warp drives or something

Solar sails? There's a form of wind in space?

 

[Cogman]

(solar wind caused by ions emited from the sun. Not the fastest way to travel mind you). I read an artical that stated that a new sound engine has been made, though I dont think it could work in space I believe they where saying it could.

 

[k1pp3r]

most ion purpulsion has about the same amount of thrust as a piece of paper exerts on your hand. I'm suprised no one mentioned anti-matter purpulsion, that will be the most likely form to get us around, and will also likely be one of the greatest releases of energy humans have the ability to harness in the near future

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Cogman
(solar wind caused by ions emited from the sun. Not the fastest way to travel mind you). I read an artical that stated that a new sound engine has been made, though I dont think it could work in space I believe they where saying it could.

But... it's still pretty fast. (once you get going) - IIRC, acceleration would be slow.
Another slow acceleration, but one with a higher speed would be by harnessing the momentum from photons - use a laser to "push" an object through space.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Cogman
(solar wind caused by ions emited from the sun. Not the fastest way to travel mind you). I read an artical that stated that a new sound engine has been made, though I dont think it could work in space I believe they where saying it could.

But... it's still pretty fast. (once you get going) - IIRC, acceleration would be slow.
Another slow acceleration, but one with a higher speed would be by harnessing the momentum from photons - use a laser to "push" an object through space.

Wow... I actually never heard of that idea. I'm guessing the primary reason why we're considering Ion/Photon/Whatever propulsion systems is because of its ability to put out thrust for a very very long time?

 

[Falloutboy]

from what i've read ion is proubly the most effiecient over a long term and can get some pretty good speeds but acelleration is slow. another option would be a fission or fusion engine to superheat hydrogen to create thrust, but this would be more of a short term booster type engine to get the ship up to speed with a ion based engine to carry it the rest of the way when it exhausts its fuel.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Cogman
(solar wind caused by ions emited from the sun. Not the fastest way to travel mind you). I read an artical that stated that a new sound engine has been made, though I dont think it could work in space I believe they where saying it could.

But... it's still pretty fast. (once you get going) - IIRC, acceleration would be slow.
Another slow acceleration, but one with a higher speed would be by harnessing the momentum from photons - use a laser to "push" an object through space.

Wow... I actually never heard of that idea. I'm guessing the primary reason why we're considering Ion/Photon/Whatever propulsion systems is because of its ability to put out thrust for a very very long time?

A solar sail (whether just being pushed by the sun's natural ionic output or being driven by planetary or orbital lasers) would be useful because it is a passive drive system from the perspective of the spacecraft -- it doesn't need any fuel or energy onboard, except possibly to adjust the positioning of the sail(s).

Ion drives (which have been used on a few probes, IIRC) are pretty small and light, very low-power (low enough to be driven by solar cells or a small RTG), and very efficient, but still require fuel. They're good for situations where you don't care if the acceleration is very, very low. You might only get 1/1000th of a Newton of acceleration, but if you can wait a few months (or years), it adds up.

One sci-fi idea for interstellar travel are ramscoops -- basically a fusion engine that, once going fast enough, uses a powerful electromagnetic field to collect hydrogen ions from (nearly) empty space, giving you a practically limitless supply of fuel.

There's also the Orion drive, but governments are understandably a bit edgy about detonating nuclear weapons, even in space.

 

[Vee]

It's doable. It would take effort, time and money, ...as usual.

Matthias99 has already mentioned the Orion drive. Which seem to me to be the most 'practical', 'current technology' solution. A dynamite propelled model has flown, fairly well too. There's a development of this idea, 'Dadaelus', which would use a kind of puls fusion rocket.

Then there's the laserdriven photon sail. Doesn't seem very economical or practically possible to me (considering the enormous poweroutput needed). Its compulsive mental hook on some dreamers, seem to be that the vehicle doesn't have to carry reaction mass or fuel. For some reason, some eguate that with good engineering and that most of the problems are solved. It would brake by releasing part of the sail and brake on the reflected laserbeam from that. Doesn't convince me. The energy needed defies contemplation. Methinks, if/when we can do that, produce so much energy in a laser, then we will already travel between the stars.

IMO, oldfashioned reaction mass drives are more realistic. Basically the only thing needed is to become a bit reckless with nuclear technology and its possibilities in rocket propulsion. Build something looking like a pregnant supertanker, and off you go.

Humans wanting to make the trip should be prepared to spend most of their lifes.

 

[imported_jb]

there is a theory about using entangled particles where you keep one here and send one to space. then the energy focused on the local one is displayed at the remote. (google: "photon drive" einstein entangled quantam space travel)

i dunno how that laser thing works, but i thought once that by focusing photons against some material, maybe you could create a traffic-jam of photons strong enough to propel you thru space. you'd have to keep the base stationary probably tho...

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: PsharkJF
From what I've read - [theoretical] Ion engines are great for travelling long distances in space, but are not nearly powerful enough to launch from a planet.

Ion engines are efficient, though they provide very little thrust. However, this gradual acceleration can build to very great speeds over time. Or solar sails - they'd allow for fuel conservation while within the confines of a solar system.
Either way though, there's one big problem - change in velocity, and its effects on human occupants. Accelerating to great speeds would alone take a few generations, as would decelerating.

Enough fuel would be a big issue as well - you'd need enough supplies to get to the other system, and then have enough supplies left to get back home, should the new system prove uninhabitable. Though I'd imagine a probe or two would be sent to the system first to scan it.

most ion purpulsion has about the same amount of thrust as a piece of paper exerts on your hand. I'm suprised no one mentioned anti-matter purpulsion, that will be the most likely form to get us around, and will also likely be one of the greatest releases of energy humans have the ability to harness in the near future

Problem with antimatter though is producing it. Right now it's ridiculously expensive - I think it's made atom-by-atom. Producing any substantial amount of it would probably cost many hundreds of billions of dollars, and take ludicrous amounts of energy and resources.

One sci-fi idea for interstellar travel are ramscoops -- basically a fusion engine that, once going fast enough, uses a powerful electromagnetic field to collect hydrogen ions from (nearly) empty space, giving you a practically limitless supply of fuel.

Those were used on the Enterprise too - the red things in the front of their engines. Bussard Ramscoops, named after Robert W Bussard, who thought up the idea.
Link

There's also the Orion drive, but governments are understandably a bit edgy about detonating nuclear weapons, even in space.

And you leave a deadly "exhaust trail" behind you in space.

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

There's also the Orion drive, but governments are understandably a bit edgy about detonating nuclear weapons, even in space.

And you leave a deadly "exhaust trail" behind you in space.

I think there's quite deadly radiation of all kinds, already, in space.

 

[Machupo]

well, it would be an engineering feat in the extreme and at least a century out, but you could always build an extraordinarily large particle accelerator on a platform in space and orbit it near the sun (inside the orbit of mercury), this would allow you to harness a huge amount of solar radiation as power (not to mention to produce positrons for antihydrogen creation) and create antiprotons. I still think that antimatter reaction mass would give you the best bang for the buck if you could define and execute a reasonable production model like ^above^.

Other than that... lots of time... no matter how fast you go (even approaching c) it's going to take a LONG time to get anywhere in interstellar space.

 

[cheesehead]

One thing no one has brought up is nuclear fusion, not nuclear fission.
Some scientists at MIT came up with this idea: Use a vast number of huge toroial magnets, forming a cylindrical chamber, to contain the fusion reaction. Because you could adjust the strength of the magnets, you could spit the energy out the back, and because of the toroids you could slow down the output of plasma so as to avoid squishing. Of course, fusion is not that efficient, but if you just spit energy out the back you can actually get a reasonably effecient engine.
Then again, a generic-variety fusion reactor would allow us to reach anywhere, providing we can A. sustain fusion and B. get even a 1% more energy out of the reaction than we put in. A fusion reactor, although ridiculously dangerous, is hardly any worse than a missle welded to your ship (a.k.a space shuttle) and puts out very little radiation.
Of course, for the time being, an Ion drive with some VERY big solar panels is perhaps the best option for an interstellar spaceship. Although a large greenhouse (sustained by the solar panels) to supply oxygen and food would be needed, as well as a vast supply of expendable repair materials.
Also, there is the problem of high-speed interstellar particles, which can cause brain damage, amongst other things. In order to slow them down, you would need a lot of water. Perhaps you could make a giant water compartment encircling the living quarters, and fill it with algae to convert carbon dioxide to oxygen, with a reflective layer on both side to bounce back in light produced by LED's. Over this, you would most likely need an inch of lead and several feet of soft foam to protect against interstellar debris and radiation.
Just my two cents.

 

[Wahsapa]

no matter what the engine is you would most certainly need an entire ecosystem for the crew to live in. maybe by harnessing an astroid, hollowing it out, and building your ship inside it, while the engine sits outside. an orion drive seems like the best way to drive a giant astroid/ecosystem around, you can also use some gravity tricks with out planets to sling the ship away from out solar system, then maybe let sails take over?

either way, a trip like this, you going to need a mini-'earth' to live in.

 

[cirthix]

it would take lots of time

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
One thing no one has brought up is nuclear fusion, not nuclear fission.
Some scientists at MIT came up with this idea: Use a vast number of huge toroial magnets, forming a cylindrical chamber, to contain the fusion reaction. Because you could adjust the strength of the magnets, you could spit the energy out the back, and because of the toroids you could slow down the output of plasma so as to avoid squishing. Of course, fusion is not that efficient, but if you just spit energy out the back you can actually get a reasonably effecient engine.
Then again, a generic-variety fusion reactor would allow us to reach anywhere, providing we can A. sustain fusion and B. get even a 1% more energy out of the reaction than we put in. A fusion reactor, although ridiculously dangerous, is hardly any worse than a missle welded to your ship (a.k.a space shuttle) and puts out very little radiation.

I did mention fusion rockets, 'Dadaelus'.
And I agree, this is probably the key to interstellar travel.

Of course, for the time being, an Ion drive with some VERY big solar panels is perhaps the best option for an interstellar spaceship. Although a large greenhouse (sustained by the solar panels) to supply oxygen and food would be needed, as well as a vast supply of expendable repair materials.
Also, there is the problem of high-speed interstellar particles, which can cause brain damage, amongst other things. In order to slow them down, you would need a lot of water. Perhaps you could make a giant water compartment encircling the living quarters, and fill it with algae to convert carbon dioxide to oxygen, with a reflective layer on both side to bounce back in light produced by LED's. Over this, you would most likely need an inch of lead and several feet of soft foam to protect against interstellar debris and radiation.
Just my two cents.

No, because the Solar panels will only be useful very, very close to stars. Not between them.
Also don't underestimate the possibilities of oldfashioned storage of supplies. It may very well be a better option than any greenhouse. I'm guessing along tracks like algea tanks to bind carbon, free oxygen and get rid of carbondioxide, but it might very well be that the solution to that will be some kind of synthetic panels.

 

[cheesehead]

Good point. Without a fusion reactor, interstellar travel is impossible.
I also like the idea stated by Wahspa-hollow out an asteroid. If anyone other than myself has read Larry Niven's Neutron Star, you would see how this might work. Hollow out the inside of an asteroid in a cylindrical shape, spin it to give gravity, and suspend a fusion reactor that only emits visible (and a little UV) light in the center to act as a "sun". The asteroid will block most radiation, fast-moving particles, and other nasty things, while keeping the air in. Of course, you would need an airlock to allow people to fix the ion drive, but it would work.
Imagine that-a giant asteroid flying through the void at thousands of miles per hour, soaring twoards obilvion, accellerating to near-light speed. Time would slow down due to the high speeds, making communication with earth difficult.

 

[flashbacck]

Originally posted by: k1pp3r
most ion purpulsion has about the same amount of thrust as a piece of paper exerts on your hand. I'm suprised no one mentioned anti-matter purpulsion, that will be the most likely form to get us around, and will also likely be one of the greatest releases of energy humans have the ability to harness in the near future

I think when matter and antimatter collide the only thing that's suppose to be released is gamma radiation, which wouldn't really propel you anywhere. Anyway, where are you going to get the stuff? If you had the energy and tech to make it, you probably wouldn't need it!

 

[Machupo]

Originally posted by: flashbacck
I think when matter and antimatter collide the only thing that's suppose to be released is gamma radiation, which wouldn't really propel you anywhere.

i believe that's what a nozzle is for...

Anyway, where are you going to get the stuff? If you had the energy and tech to make it, you probably wouldn't need it!

CERN currently stacks a little over 11 nanograms of antiprotons per year... quite a small amount, but then for certain antimatter engine designs you only need a dozen times that to get to the Oort cloud...

 

[flashbacck]

Originally posted by: Machupo

i believe that's what a nozzle is for...

How does a nozzle help you with gamma radiation?

And how much energy does it take to make or collect antiprotons? I'll bet it's horribly inefficient.

 

[iwantanewcomputer]

if you collide matter and antimatter the energy released goes in all directions, and thus does not propel stuff forewards. if you cause this explosion inside some sort of chamber with only one opening (through a nozzel on one end) energy will escape that way and propel the chamber foreward. it's newton's law of equal and opposite forces