Transportation chief eyes taxing miles driven

[ZzZGuy]

I just love the part of putting a GPS tracking device into vehicles. Hope you Americans don't mind someone knowing everywhere you drive and stop at. Perhaps follow Britain's model and start putting cameras everywhere, that way you can get a video of where X car stopped and follow his every move. Throw in some warrantless wiretapping along with tracking internet activity for good measure. Can you imagine the massive potential for abuse with this? The GPS tracker is by far the biggest issue here if it goes through.

Even if your precious Obama does the right thing and only allow such activity under a judge approved warrant in proper cases, he's only in office for two terms and everything he does can be undone. Take out the GPS idea and it's more a matter of "you got a better idea?"

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
wow.. more stupidity ..

The system would require all cars and trucks be equipped with global satellite positioning technology, a transponder, a clock and other equipment to record how many miles a vehicle was driven, whether it was driven on highways or secondary roads, and even whether it was driven during peak traffic periods or off-peak hours.

so it will cost government 30 billion to provide a gps to everyone, then about 50% will either hack the system or simply not drive with it... net -30 billion..

I was wondering how they would do this. To which I say (a) no way the government would pay the costs of the gps system-it would be built into the cost of a new car, (b) what to do about older vehicles? and most importantly (c) no way in h*ll would I sit still for a system under which the government can monitor our every move.

For the recent past and near term future, I say BS that more efficient cars caused more than a tiny fraction of the decreased fuel consumption. Reduced driving had a lot more to do with it.

I say hike the gas tax more as alternatives become more available. I will serve the social good of weaning us off foreign oil by increasing it's cost. Eventually perhaps some system will have to replace the fuel tax, but not for years.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: PingSpike

How about this, why don't we lobby for a tire tax instead. Tires wear down as they're driven so obviously the more tires you use the more miles you've driven so tax each tire sold.

But then the goverm't won't have an excuse to have a GPS in your car??

LOL, yeah that probably is it. Too bad every terrorist would have it removed or drive a 1989 Ford Escort that never had one to begin with. The rest of us would get tickets in the mail every time we passed some one or sometimes just for the hell of it because thats what the satelite said.

I suggested the tire tax as a joke, but now that I think about it, the tire tax makes way more sense if we're really so concerned about hybrids stealin' all our highway money. At least its a lot less complicated.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dullard
If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

That plan won't put a GPS in everyone's vehicle.

Don't even think about speeding when that happens.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be GPS based. That would be the best (IMO), but obviously it would have to be an incredibly simple system that records only accumulated distance.

Given how advanced the tech community is it would be virtually impossible for the government to sneak any kind of speed or location tracking into it. Not to mention the administrative nightmare to collect/process that data. I don't think it should be that much of a worry.

And no, of course I would not support any system which contained speed or tracking capabilities. I would be fine with an odometer based system.

Your tax = $ * GVW * (new odometer reading - old odometer reading)

You pay the tax from your last tank when you fill up.

Viper GTS

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dullard
I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

Yep, a gas tax is the perfect tax. Completely use based, and if set correctly the amount collected should always match the amount required to maintain the roads.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dullard
If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

That plan won't put a GPS in everyone's vehicle.

Don't even think about speeding when that happens.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be GPS based. That would be the best (IMO), but obviously it would have to be an incredibly simple system that records only accumulated distance.

Given how advanced the tech community is it would be virtually impossible for the government to sneak any kind of speed or location tracking into it. Not to mention the administrative nightmare to collect/process that data. I don't think it should be that much of a worry.

And no, of course I would not support any system which contained speed or tracking capabilities. I would be fine with an odometer based system.

Your tax = $ * GVW * (new odometer reading - old odometer reading)

You pay the tax from your last tank when you fill up.

Viper GTS

Couldn't the same thing be accomplished by setting vehicle registration fees based on vehicle weight plus a gas tax?

Why does everything have to be so damn complicated?

 

[Possessed Freak]

I can think of a couple of simple ways to execute this:

Tax tire/brake sales (obviously, if you drive you wear these parts out)
Add a Federal tax on your state inspections since they record your odometer reading there, just include the tax at that point.

Do I think this is a good idea, no because it really screws with those who purchased a fuel saver car who actually rant the numbers to see which way is better. Take myself for example, I ran the numbers last summer and found that I purchase a beater car for ~1000 dollars that gets at least 30 MPG and it lasts me one year it will pay for itself in fuel costs. Now if they add on that tax I would have to make that purchase last me that much longer for me to see the break even point (even if you consider that the prior car was being driven instead it would be a worse ratio of savings per mile).

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Corn

Don't even think about speeding when that happens.

wow thats a scary thought... automatic speeding ticket if you speed.. then they can get rid of all those highway patrols.. and possibly lower our tax

big invasion on our privacy though..

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Corn

Don't even think about speeding when that happens.

wow thats a scary thought... automatic speeding ticket if you speed.. then they can get rid of all those highway patrols.. and possibly lower our tax

big invasion on our privacy though..

LOL...oh you!

 

[NoCreativity]

Don't they keep records of what the average gas mileage is for all cars combined? If not, something could be worked out. Tie the gas tax to that number. As that number increases, so does the tax.

Or lke PF said, just have them take an odometer reading when you renew registration/inspection for the year and pay a tax at that point.

 

[Genx87]

If they do anything other than simply raise the gas tax to compensate they are upto something else. Putting a cost prohibitive item like a GPS isnt for gas tax collection imo.

 

[Modelworks]

Right now the tax on gas for transportation cost is a bit unfair. If my car gets 20MPG and your car gets 30MPG, we are both paying the same amount, but you are using the roads more. Mileage would be more fair. The more you drive the more you pay because you are using more services. It isn't much , but it is also unfair to tax gasoline that I buy for a lawn mower, trimmer, etc, that doesn't use roads.

 

[MovingTarget]

Gas taxes and vehicle weight taxes are still appropriate imho. GPS tracking is an invasion of privacy and down right impractical. If the gvt needs more money for transportation, they should just *gasp* raise taxes or reduce spending in other areas. It really is that easy.

 

[txrandom]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: dullard
I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

You are falsely assuming that fuel efficient = lighter. In many cases hybrid versions of vehicles weigh the same or even more than their conventional counterparts. There is no reduced road wear for their fuel efficiency.

As a rule cars have gotten substantially heavier over the last few decades. Fuel economy has gone up due to technology, but cars have generally become heavier. With hybrid, electric, and other alternate fuels gaining popularity fuel economy is increasingly detached from road wear.

The system needs to be updated, & we have the technology available to cheaply level the field.

Viper GTS

The could always just put more water (ethanol) in our gas to force us to buy more gallons of fuel. Or just raise the gas tax.

You propose implementing a new, complicated tax system in response to the handful of people driving priuses "cheating" the system out of a few nickles of gas tax a week?

How about this, why don't we lobby for a tire tax instead. Tires wear down as they're driven so obviously the more tires you use the more miles you've driven so tax each tire sold.

Ethanol is water?

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: txrandom

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: dullard
I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

You are falsely assuming that fuel efficient = lighter. In many cases hybrid versions of vehicles weigh the same or even more than their conventional counterparts. There is no reduced road wear for their fuel efficiency.

As a rule cars have gotten substantially heavier over the last few decades. Fuel economy has gone up due to technology, but cars have generally become heavier. With hybrid, electric, and other alternate fuels gaining popularity fuel economy is increasingly detached from road wear.

The system needs to be updated, & we have the technology available to cheaply level the field.

Viper GTS

The could always just put more water (ethanol) in our gas to force us to buy more gallons of fuel. Or just raise the gas tax.

You propose implementing a new, complicated tax system in response to the handful of people driving priuses "cheating" the system out of a few nickles of gas tax a week?

How about this, why don't we lobby for a tire tax instead. Tires wear down as they're driven so obviously the more tires you use the more miles you've driven so tax each tire sold.

Ethanol is water?

I think he is being a little hyperbolic here, but his statement is grounded in truth. Ethanol has a lower energy density per unit volume than regular gasoline on average. Hence, more of it is needed to produce the same power in an engine, resulting in lower MPG. He is comparing the ethanol mandates in gasoline to the rather unscrupulous (and illegal) practice of gas stations putting a slight bit of water in their tanks mixed in with the gas to save some $$ over the long run, as water is cheaper than gas. Too much though, and it will ruin your engine.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Corn

Don't even think about speeding when that happens.

wow thats a scary thought... automatic speeding ticket if you speed.. then they can get rid of all those highway patrols.. and possibly lower our tax

big invasion on our privacy though..

LOL...oh you!

lol my bad lol

 

[LTC8K6]

So you get an old car that runs well enough to get to the gas station and use it to transfer fuel. Or you use a 5 gallon can to get fuel for your "lawnmower". Or you just use your lawn tractor to transfer fuel.

People will simply get around this in any of several ways.